# Military Polls Soldiers on DADT **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 14, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673 "2010-07-14T16:33:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/61 "2010-07-15T18:19:28Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The opinions of those in uniforms is completely irrelevant… > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Trying to get a gauge of how many people will be problems makes sense, … **Dio** backtracking once again. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/62 "2010-07-15T18:22:27Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > **Dio** backtracking once again. Bullshit. There’s a difference between allowing an opinion poll to influence policy and using an opinion poll to give you a sense of what kind of trouble you’ll face _when_, not _if_, you change policy. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/63 "2010-07-15T18:27:10Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Bullshit. There’s a difference between allowing an opinion poll to influence policy and using an opinion poll to give you a sense of what kind of trouble you’ll face _when_, not _if_, you change policy. No, there’s isn’t. You know why they’re using an opinion poll to give them a sense of what kind of trouble they’ll face? So that it can influence their policy decisions. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/64 "2010-07-15T18:44:05Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > 15 years ago I saw very uneven handling of the issue. One commander booted a non-closeted gay (he wasn’t flaming, and he adhered to the same public display of affection standards the rest of us were held to, but he also didn’t lie to any of us when discussions of preference came up in casual conversation) because he didn’t like gays and he had an opportunity to discharge an otherwise highly competent linguist. Yeah, they’re **all** linguists, ain’t they, them pervs . . . ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/65 "2010-07-15T19:08:54Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It was a privately conducted survey. Neither the military nor the civilian leadership had anything to do with it. That’s simply untrue. [Cite](http://servicemembersunited.org/morrellresponse): > [@](#): > > On Wednesday, July 07, 2010, the Department of Defense sent out a survey to 400,000 active duty and reserve service members about issues related to the impending repeal of the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” law. The survey was designed and administered by the research firm Westat in conjunction with the Pentagon’s Comprehensive Review Working Group on “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.” > . > . > . > Even if the the survey contract with Westat was only for $850,000, that’s still an > enormous sum and a huge waste of taxpayer money. Regardless, the entire survey contract with Westat, including support, analysis, etc., did cost over $4.4 million, as Servicemembers United originally said and as Mr. Morrell confirmed on Friday. ETA: I see you’re now already aware of this… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/66 "2010-07-15T19:17:32Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > **Dio** backtracking once again. No, their opinions are still irrelevant either way. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/67 "2010-07-15T19:53:43Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, their opinions are still irrelevant either way. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/68 "2010-07-18T00:33:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Repeal Of ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’ Paves Way For Gay Sex Right On Battlefield, Opponents Fantasize.](http://www.theonion.com/articles/repeal-of-dont-ask-dont-tell-paves-way-for-gay-sex,17698/) _waves in general direction of posts 18,24,42_ _pats BG condescendingly on the head_ ---
**Author:** ![Cyningablod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Cyningablod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyningablod)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/69 "2010-07-18T04:27:29Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > OK, retards, so what would you do if Reagan/Clinton told you to take a survey? Would you tell him to shove off, because your opinion doesn’t matter? Or would you do your duty and take the survey? Yeah, that’s what I thought. > > You’re saying “Who cares what the military thinks?” when it’s painfully obvious that THE CIVILIAN GOVERNMENT DOES. The fact that you two glue sniffers can’t see that is an impressive display of stupidity. **Chessic** : If I had been polled about my feelings on gays openly serving in the military, back when I was a soldier, of course I would have done my duty and completed the survey. What, pray tell, is your point? Obeying an order to complete a survey is in no way an undermining of my and **Dio** ’s position that servicemembers’ feelings are properly irrelevant to policy. And let me correct you here: It is NOT the civilian administration that is polling service members. It is the military itself (for some largely inscrutable reason). ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/70 "2010-07-18T04:50:55Z")
> [@Cyningablod](#): > > **Chessic** : > > If I had been polled about my feelings on gays openly serving in the military, back when I was a soldier, of course I would have done my duty and completed the survey. > > What, pray tell, is your point? Obeying an order to complete a survey is in no way an undermining of my and **Dio** ’s position that servicemembers’ feelings are properly irrelevant to policy. > > And let me correct you here: It is NOT the civilian administration that is polling service members. It is the military itself (for some largely inscrutable reason). My point is that you’re wrong. SMs’ feelings on the matter are extremely relevant to good decision-making. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/71 "2010-07-18T04:52:56Z")
Except they’re not. They’re not even asked for. ---
**Author:** ![bannerrefugee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@bannerrefugee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bannerrefugee)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/72 "2010-07-18T10:11:59Z")
The entire justification put forth by generals for DADT since Clinton has been couched in the idea that we cannot do to the soldiers something that would hurt their moral. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/73 "2010-07-18T10:37:10Z")
Everybody is talking past each other. I’m not sure there’s any real disagreement here, except maybe the standard SDMB “I will never concede even in the slightest that my opponent has a point” recalcitrance. Point one: No one, I believe, disagrees that in the military, the chain of command is largely unquestioned (let’s not have any Nuremberg sidetracks), and that civilians are ultimately in charge of the military. The opinions of the dogfaces, in a very real but technical sense, are irrelevant, in that no one need heed them. That is absolutely how it works. Period. Point two: But the policymakers _may_ heed them–it’s entirely up to them. They can consider them and act upon them in any way they so choose. They can ignore them. They can tweak their imminent policy change. They can keep policy the status quo. Or they can simply use the info to understand how to deal with the aftermath of the policy change (e.g., morale problems, lowered enlistment, whatever they discern). They are under no obligation because of Point One to ignore the opinions of the troops. In fact, if the first point is true, they can do any @#$%ing thing they want with those opinions, including changing their policies. And that may be exactly why they’re conducting the survey. “A soldier will do as he’s told, dammit” is a notion not threatened at all by this survey, so bringing it up is the real irrelevancy. Does anyone disagree with either of those points? Or should we have the typical eight pages of violently agreeing with each other, quibbling over what is essentially a semantic point? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/74 "2010-07-18T17:05:11Z")
I disagree with the second point. It would be irresponsible to consider their opinions at all, or give them the impression that what they think matters. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/75 "2010-07-18T20:41:33Z")
I don’t know what you’re disagreeing with, though. It’s inarguable. You can say that you personally would not for any reason entertain their opinions. That’s fine. But the current policymakers may do whatever the hell they’d like. So an unequivocal statement suggesting that the opinions are de facto irrelevancies is, well, wrong. The opinions have whatever weight the policymakers decide to assign them. They’re commissioning this survey for a reason. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/76 "2010-07-19T01:54:31Z")
Almost OT, did you see in yesterday’s New York Times article about that Quaker hotline for in-service concisenious objectors? They are getting at least some calls from soldiers unwilling to serve with openly Gay people. The group says they will not help such soldiers get CO status. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/77 "2010-07-19T01:59:43Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I disagree with the second point. It would be irresponsible to consider their opinions at all, or give them the impression that what they think matters. What? Its not irresponsible for commanders to consider what their underlings think and feel about an issue…that’s _responsible_ leadership! And doing so doesn’t in any way undermine the “we own you, shut the fuck up and do as we say” doctrine that the military operates under, either. Listening to your subordinates and addressing their legitimate issues is part of being a good commanding officer. Ignoring them and telling them to “suck it up” only works in certain scenarios. I think you are letting your previous military experience from awhile ago get in the way of how it operates now…which is much of the same, yet a little different. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/78 "2010-07-19T04:37:42Z")
I still disagree. It’s the military, not the Oprah Winfrey show. They’re not there to talk about their feelings. Yes, CO’s should monitors what’s going on, and how things are working, but only from a logistic standpoint, not for opinions on how they like the policy. Bitching about policy is the number one sport in the ranks. If the brass started involving themselves in listening to that, they’d never get anything else done. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/79 "2010-07-21T06:48:48Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > What? Its not irresponsible for commanders to consider what their underlings think and feel about an issue…that’s _responsible_ leadership! > > And doing so doesn’t in any way undermine the “we own you, shut the fuck up and do as we say” doctrine that the military operates under, either. > > Listening to your subordinates and addressing their legitimate issues is part of being a good commanding officer. Ignoring them and telling them to “suck it up” only works in certain scenarios. I think you are letting your previous military experience from awhile ago get in the way of how it operates now…which is much of the same, yet a little different. Sort of like [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLJ8ILIE780), then? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673/80 "2010-07-21T14:23:01Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Sort of like [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLJ8ILIE780), then? LOL, that’s great! “I’d rather be at home with my wife and kids” “Would you!?!? Right then, off you go!” 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-polls-soldiers-on-dadt/546673.md?page=5)