# Military question: a matter of rank **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 11, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-question-a-matter-of-rank/168123 "2003-04-11T21:29:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-question-a-matter-of-rank/168123/1 "2003-04-11T21:29:20Z")
Second Lieutenant Smith, fresh from receiving his commission, walks into the office of Sergeant Major of the Army Jones, a combat veteran with 20 years of military service. Smith orders Jones to drop and do fifty push-ups. Two questions: (1) what happens theoretically? and (2) what happens in actual fact? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-question-a-matter-of-rank/168123/2 "2003-04-11T21:37:29Z")
Second Lieutenant smith, wouldn’t be in Sergeant Major of the Army Jones’ chain of command to give him any orders. Also, Second Lieutenant Smith wouldn’t even get away with pushing a private around that way, unless that private was still in Basic. ---
**Author:** ![WillSantini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ed8c4c/32.png) [@WillSantini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillSantini)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-question-a-matter-of-rank/168123/3 "2003-04-11T21:37:38Z")
This is not a lawful order, it would be considered hazing. Actual: The 2ndLt wouldn’t even make it into the SgtMaj’s office, he would probably be re-routed by a salty SFC. If for some reason the 2ndLt made it into the SgtMaj’s office, well, lets just say he probably wouldn’t hold on to his commision for too much longer. ---
**Author:** ![WillSantini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ed8c4c/32.png) [@WillSantini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillSantini)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-question-a-matter-of-rank/168123/4 "2003-04-11T21:40:49Z")
_commission_ ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-question-a-matter-of-rank/168123/5 "2003-04-11T21:41:38Z")
**WillSantini** , are you a Sgt? I’m just wondering because of your handle reminding me of _The Great Santini_, a movie about a Sgt. from years ago. Does the scenario you describe ever actually happen? I thought that commissions come from the President; does it often happen that some new junior commissioned officer screws up so badly that the motion to decommission him travels all the way up the chain of command resulting in his being axed? ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-question-a-matter-of-rank/168123/6 "2003-04-11T21:46:51Z")
**Spectre** , yes, officers can and sometimes are decommissioned. Also, under certain circumstances, they can resign their commission and re-enter the service as an enlisted man. (There is a sergeant in Airman Doors’s unit who resigned his commission because he couldn’t do what he wanted as an officer, but he could as enlisted. This is a Guard unit, so take that into account, because they have somewhat more flexibility than a regular military unit.) Robin ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-question-a-matter-of-rank/168123/7 "2003-04-11T21:53:39Z")
X-ray, Santini, thanks for your responses. Suppose the order were less severe, something that wasn’t hazing. I guess what I’m getting at is whether there exists any circumstance in which the SMA (who I understand is currently the personal assistant to the Army Chief of Staff) would have to display subordination to the higher ranked 2nd Lt. If they were passing on the sidewalk, for example, would the SMA at least have to initiate a salute? ---
**Author:** ![WillSantini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ed8c4c/32.png) [@WillSantini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillSantini)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-question-a-matter-of-rank/168123/8 "2003-04-11T21:55:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spectre of Pithecanthropus \* > **WillSantini, are you a Sgt? I’m just wondering because of your handle reminding me of _The Great Santini_, a movie about a Sgt. from years ago.** I am a Sgt (Marine), but the [book](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0553268929/qid=1050098185/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-5190272-6470341?v=glance&s=books) (or movie as you mentioned) is not about a Sgt, Bull _the Great Santini_ Meecham was a LtCol. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-question-a-matter-of-rank/168123/9 "2003-04-11T22:00:03Z")
He would absolutely have to initiate a salute, but that’s about it. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-question-a-matter-of-rank/168123/10 "2003-04-11T22:04:01Z")
I’m not sure why exactly, but for some reason I find that greatly comforting. Thanks again. ---
**Author:** ![WillSantini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ed8c4c/32.png) [@WillSantini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillSantini)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-question-a-matter-of-rank/168123/11 "2003-04-11T22:05:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*X-ray, Santini, thanks for your responses. Suppose the order were less severe, something that wasn’t hazing. I guess what I’m getting at is whether there exists any circumstance in which the SMA (who I understand is currently the personal assistant to the Army Chief of Staff) would have to display subordination to the higher ranked 2nd Lt. If they were passing on the sidewalk, for example, would the SMA at least have to initiate a salute? \*\* I must say I am only looking at this from a Marine Corps point of view: In theory yes, the SgtMaj would have to salute a 2ndLt. I was once watching from my barracks room a group of Lt’s (both 2nd and 1st) when the Battalion SgtMaj walked out of the building. The Lt’s parted like the Red Sea and the SgtMaj walked through and never even acknowledged them. ---
**Author:** ![G-Unit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@G-Unit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G-Unit)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-question-a-matter-of-rank/168123/12 "2003-04-11T22:16:00Z")
Hoorah SgtMaj. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-question-a-matter-of-rank/168123/13 "2003-04-11T22:32:51Z")
There are two kinds of military authority: (1) General Authority, and (2) Positional Authority. The Lieutenant has general authority over the SGM and, if the order is lawful (such as “your uniform is missing a required item, correct that, Sergeant Major”), then the SGM has the duty of following it. If the order is not lawful, the SGM has the duty to not follow it. If the Lieutenant were to be assigned as the SGM’s platoon leader, then he would have positional authority also over the SGM. ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-question-a-matter-of-rank/168123/14 "2003-04-11T22:37:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*There are two kinds of military authority: (1) General Authority, and (2) Positional Authority. The Lieutenant has general authority over the SGM and, if the order is lawful (such as “your uniform is missing a required item, correct that, Sergeant Major”), then the SGM has the duty of following it. If the order is not lawful, the SGM has the duty to not follow it. If the Lieutenant were to be assigned as the SGM’s platoon leader, then he would have positional authority also over the SGM. \*\* \*_Monty_, what does positional authority involve that general authority doesn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-question-a-matter-of-rank/168123/15 "2003-04-11T23:14:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by WillSantini \* > \*\*I am a Sgt (Marine), but the [book](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0553268929/qid=1050098185/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-5190272-6470341?v=glance&s=books) (or movie as you mentioned) is not about a Sgt, Bull _the Great Santini_ Meecham was a LtCol. \*\* My mistake. As you can tell, I never actually saw the film, but probably will one of these days. ---
**Author:** ![ski](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@ski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ski)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-question-a-matter-of-rank/168123/16 "2003-04-11T23:43:22Z")
**G-Unit** , why do you say “hoorah” that the SgtMaj didn’t salute the Lt’s? Seems to me he violated one of the most basic of all the military customs and courtesies. Due to his senior enlisted rank, he is supposed to be an example to those junior personnel, but clearly has no regard for established traditions. I would have been much more impressed if the story ended with one of the Lt’s correcting him on the spot. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-question-a-matter-of-rank/168123/17 "2003-04-11T23:47:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by brianmelendez \* > \*\*\*_Monty_, what does positional authority involve that general authority doesn’t? \*\* In a nutshell, if I have positional authority over you, then I’m responsible for your actions. It also means that anyone who wants to get to you has to go through me. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-question-a-matter-of-rank/168123/18 "2003-04-11T23:56:31Z")
Alessan covered the general idea. The specifics is that if a Lieutenant goes into the company clerk’s office and orders the clerk to stop what he’s doing and go somewhere, he’s abusing his authority. The positional authority over the company clerk is the clerk’s first line supervisor and it is that supervisor who gets to decide how the clerk will be employed. ---
**Author:** ![Vortex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/fbc32d/32.png) [@Vortex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vortex)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2003, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-question-a-matter-of-rank/168123/19 "2003-04-12T00:39:28Z")
slight hijack, and forgive my cluelessness… What’s with the rank of Marshall (as in the Marshall of France)? I heard that outranks an admiral. Do we have marshalls in the US Armed Forces? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2003, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-question-a-matter-of-rank/168123/20 "2003-04-12T01:30:55Z")
There are no Marshals in the US armed forces, though there is the [US Marshals Service](http://www.usdoj.gov/marshals/), but they’re a completely different, non-military kind of Marshal. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-question-a-matter-of-rank/168123.md?page=2)