# Military: Reduction in rank before dishonorable discharge? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 19, 2004, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-reduction-in-rank-before-dishonorable-discharge/246050 "2004-05-19T22:26:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-reduction-in-rank-before-dishonorable-discharge/246050/1 "2004-05-19T22:26:06Z")
Specialist Sivits was sentenced today to a year in prison. In addition, he’s being demoted back to private (E-1) and will be dishonorably discharged from the service. What, exactly, is the point of the demotion? It’s not going to affect his prison sentence one way or the other, and I highly doubt he’d be eligible for any post-career benefits with a dishonorable discharge. So, why go through the meaningless demotion? Or is it routine (i.e. if a General were convicted, would s/he also be demoted to buck private?) Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2004, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-reduction-in-rank-before-dishonorable-discharge/246050/2 "2004-05-19T23:24:23Z")
It may seem a bit abstract to a civialian but reduction in earned rank ads to the dishonor of the sentance. You are correct that it makes little practical difference after discharge but stripping rank has long been a part of military punishment. Rank in the military goes beyond the fact that someone is someone else’s supervisor or foreman. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-reduction-in-rank-before-dishonorable-discharge/246050/3 "2004-05-20T00:18:15Z")
Wouldn’t it affect the pension of someone who was eligible for one? (I know Sivits was not). ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-reduction-in-rank-before-dishonorable-discharge/246050/4 "2004-05-20T00:19:33Z")
Does a servicemember get paid while incarcerated? Is his/her family eligible for any benefits while the servicemember is incarcerated? If so, then reduction in rank would have a corresponding reduction in pay and benefits. I have no idea if this is the case. Someone care to enlighten me? ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-reduction-in-rank-before-dishonorable-discharge/246050/5 "2004-05-20T01:04:14Z")
Generally, when convicted and sentenced to prison, the sentence reads “reduction to E-1, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and a dishonorable discharge.” To the best of my knowledge, those with a DD are not elegible for any benefits. Basically, the service member is shit out of luck and so is his family, if any. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-reduction-in-rank-before-dishonorable-discharge/246050/6 "2004-05-20T01:37:22Z")
Does the fact of being reduced to E-1 instead of retaining some higher rank affect the convict’s treatment while in military prison? Would a higher rank still carry any privileges? Or are **all** servicemen sentenced to imprisonment automatically reduced to E-1? ---
**Author:** ![kdeus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b487fb/32.png) [@kdeus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kdeus)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-reduction-in-rank-before-dishonorable-discharge/246050/7 "2004-05-20T02:50:21Z")
> [@](#): > > (a) Unless otherwise provided in regulations to be prescribed by the Secretary concerned, a court-martial sentence of an enlisted member in pay grade above E-1, as approved by the convening authority, that includes– > > (1) a dishonorable or bad-conduct discharge; > > (2) confinement; or > > (3) hard labor without confinement; > > reduces that member to pay grade E-1, effective on the date of that approval. —Uniform Code of Military Justice, Article 58(a), copied from [http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/ucmj/blart-58a.htm](http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/ucmj/blart-58a.htm) -kdeus I used to hate JAG because the lawyering was so inaccurate. Now I hate it because the flying is so inaccurate. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-reduction-in-rank-before-dishonorable-discharge/246050/8 "2004-05-20T02:59:12Z")
He was not sentenced to a dishonorable discharge. It was a bad conduct discharge. Not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-reduction-in-rank-before-dishonorable-discharge/246050/9 "2004-05-20T03:02:39Z")
And there will be an automatic appeal. If more comes out don’t be surprised if his sentence is lowered. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-reduction-in-rank-before-dishonorable-discharge/246050/10 "2004-05-20T03:05:49Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Does a servicemember get paid while incarcerated? Is his/her family eligible for any benefits while the servicemember is incarcerated? If so, then reduction in rank would have a corresponding reduction in pay and benefits. > > I have no idea if this is the case. Someone care to enlighten me? If he wasn’t sentenced to total forfiture of pay and allowances. He will continue to be paid at the pay grade E-1. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-reduction-in-rank-before-dishonorable-discharge/246050/11 "2004-05-20T03:14:44Z")
_" . . . a court-martial sentence of an enlisted member in pay grade above E-1 . . . that includes . . . confinement . . . reduces that member to pay grade E-1 . . ."_ Interesting. 1. Is a reduction in pay grade the same thing as a reduction in rank? 2. If it isn’t, does a reduction in pay grade mean anything at all for someone who has already forfeited all pay and allowances? 3. If it is, what is the consequence of having a lower rank while in prison. Do you get lousier treatment from the guards? From other prisoners? 4. Does the reference to “enlisted member” mean that the same reduction in rank (or pay grade) doesn’t apply (or, at least, doesn’t automatically apply) to a commissioned officer sentenced to confinement? And, if not, does anybody know if the officer’s higher rank is of any advantage to him while in prison? ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-reduction-in-rank-before-dishonorable-discharge/246050/12 "2004-05-20T03:29:50Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. Is a reduction in pay grade the same thing as a reduction in rank? Yep…pay grades are equal across all the services. The ranks are called different things. > [@](#): > > 1. If it isn’t, does a reduction in pay grade mean anything at all for someone who has already forfeited all pay and allowances? Only if, on appeal, he is allowed to return to the service. Then he would return as an E-1. ---
**Author:** ![1010011010](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ea666f/32.png) [@1010011010](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1010011010)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-reduction-in-rank-before-dishonorable-discharge/246050/13 "2004-05-20T05:37:49Z")
It has to do with the applicability of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Basically, if you get put away for doing something that’s not illegal under civil law (E.G. “Missing Movement”) the only grounds they have for sentencing you is the UCMJ. If by some quirk you were discharged BEFORE you served your sentence, you could, theoretically, argue that they have no grounds to imprison you, since you are now a civilian. and you’ve committed no crime under civil law. So, short version, you get discharged after you’ve served your sentence. Since you’re still a salaried member of the uniformed services while you’re in the pokey, it looks better to the bean counters if you’re making E-1 than E-6, because, even though they get that money right back as forfeit, it’s still a few thousand that can be allocated elsewhere rather than bounced off your paycheck. ---
**Author:** ![Jman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jman/32/4416_2.png) [@Jman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jman)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-reduction-in-rank-before-dishonorable-discharge/246050/14 "2004-05-20T06:55:58Z")
I just wanted to throw in the response to the “If a General was convicted, would he be lowered to E-1 as well.” The answer is no. Usually, commissioned officers are not reduced in rank at all. Certainly not without some serious charges and convictions. Enlisted soldiers (especially junior enlisted) can lose rank for relatively small infractions, such as failure to report, disrespecting an NCO or Officer, etc. The higher you are in the enlisted chain, the harder it is to lose rank without a court martial. A Specialist can be demoted one rank to PFC by a Captain or Lieutenant (if in command), or to E-1 by a Major or above, without a court martial (what we call an Article 15, or non-judicial punishment) E-5s and E-6s can only be reduced 1 grade by a Major or LTC. A General convicted of anything, no matter how serious, can only be reduced to O-1, or Second Lieutenant. The regulations state that commissioned officers can only be reduced to another commissioned rank. ---
**Author:** ![brad\_d](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@brad\_d](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brad_d)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-reduction-in-rank-before-dishonorable-discharge/246050/15 "2004-05-20T22:19:24Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > He was not sentenced to a dishonorable discharge. > > It was a bad conduct discharge. > > Not the same thing. What’s the difference, if you don’t mind my asking? ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-reduction-in-rank-before-dishonorable-discharge/246050/16 "2004-05-20T22:46:20Z")
> [@brad\_d](#): > > What’s the difference, if you don’t mind my asking? There are five kinds of discharges from the services… Honorable; General, under honorable conditions; Undesirable; Bad Conduct; Dishonorable. They are virtually the same but you probably have a slightly better chance of retaining some of your benefits with a bcd vs. a dd. ---
**Author:** ![Gest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Gest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gest)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-reduction-in-rank-before-dishonorable-discharge/246050/17 "2004-05-21T01:03:24Z")
What’s the difference between honourable and general? Which is the default upon leaving the service? Is undesirable for personnel with some sort of moral or character failing who don’t go so far as to break a law or regulation? Which one did you get? If you don’t mind answering of course. What about _don’t ask; don’t tell_? If you _do_ admit to homosexual preferences but deny acting upon them, does that get you a discharge? What if it’s credibly alleged that you are homosexually inclined but you don’t even admit to that? I notice Sivits received the maximum of 1 year and yet still agreed beforehand to later give evidence against accomplices. Could the offer of a bcd as opposed to a dd have been the carrot the prosecution offered him? Further hijack; will Sivits face harder time in a military prison for being a rat as he would in many civilian prisons? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-reduction-in-rank-before-dishonorable-discharge/246050/18 "2004-05-21T02:27:25Z")
> [@Gest](#): > > . . . I notice Sivits received the maximum of 1 year and yet still agreed beforehand to later give evidence against accomplices. Could the offer of a bcd as opposed to a dd have been the carrot the prosecution offered him? Just a guess, but I had assumed that the “carrot” was an agreement not to try him on more serious charges which could have resulted in a longer sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-reduction-in-rank-before-dishonorable-discharge/246050/19 "2004-05-21T03:00:27Z")
> [@Gest](#): > > What’s the difference between honourable and general? Which is the default upon leaving the service? Is undesirable for personnel with some sort of moral or character failing who don’t go so far as to break a law or regulation? Which one did you get? If you don’t mind answering of course. An honorable discharge is given to someone who has served honorably. That doesn’t mean that you can’t have had some sort of hiccups along the way, including non-judicial punishments (NJPs). Persons who screwed up a couple of times and who are redeemable can serve a career and leave with an honorable discharge. A general discharge can be given to someone (for instance) who is deemed unsuitable for military service just because he/she can’t fit in, or who can’t pass the physical fitness requirements…you get the picture. They haven’t done anything wrong, but are basically discharged at the convenience of the government. An undesirable discharge may be given to someone who is a misfit; someone who has racked up several NJPs and is deemed to be incorrigible. I suspect that this is the type discharge given to homosexuals in the past (and possibly present). A bad-conduct discharge could be given to the above person, but generally is a result of more serious behavior, including drug use, assaults, etc. Dishonorable discharges are generally doled out to those who are felons and who have disgraced the uniform. At least that was my experience. I retired with an honorable discharge after 23 years of unblemished service. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-reduction-in-rank-before-dishonorable-discharge/246050/20 "2004-05-21T03:52:09Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > An undesirable discharge may be given to someone who is a misfit; someone who has racked up several NJPs and is deemed to be incorrigible. I suspect that this is the type discharge given to homosexuals in the past (and possibly present). I recall an episode of M_A_S\*H where Klinger refused a discharge on the grounds of being a homosexual, and said he wanted a Section 8, which is mentally ill. Assuming they got military justice right, I would think that a Section 8 would be a general discharge. If someone becomes schizophrenic, they are just sick, and thus should be given a General discharge under honorable conditions. The military must have seen homosexuality as undesirable bad behavior, and being discharged for that would be consider worse than being crazy. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-reduction-in-rank-before-dishonorable-discharge/246050.md?page=2)