# Military SF books where the socialists/revolutionaries are the good guys? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 21, 2006, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-sf-books-where-the-socialists-revolutionaries-are-the-good-guys/385002 "2006-12-21T00:57:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-sf-books-where-the-socialists-revolutionaries-are-the-good-guys/385002/1 "2006-12-21T00:57:38Z")
I.e., the reverse of the Honor Harrington novels or Pournelle & Stirling’s Prince of Sparta series. Are there any? (Star Wars doesn’t count because the Rebels have no clear political or social agenda beyond destroying the Empire.) ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-sf-books-where-the-socialists-revolutionaries-are-the-good-guys/385002/2 "2006-12-21T01:02:15Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] (Star Wars doesn’t count because the Rebels have no clear political or social agenda beyond destroying the Empire.) [/QUOTE] Sure they do. They’re pro-democracy. That was pretty hammered home in Revenge of the Sith. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-sf-books-where-the-socialists-revolutionaries-are-the-good-guys/385002/3 "2006-12-21T01:15:41Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Sure they do. They’re pro-democracy. That was pretty hammered home in Revenge of the Sith. [/QUOTE] The rebels don’t even **exist** yet in _Revenge of the Sith._ Also, it’s unclear whether the later Rebels have any plans for a new form of democracy that would avoid the systemic problems that caused the Old Republic to self-destruct. And there’s no indication at all they’re socialists or leftists of any kind. (The Emperor, OTOH, could be viewed as a Stalin figure – or Pierre or St. Just of the People’s Republic of Haven.) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-sf-books-where-the-socialists-revolutionaries-are-the-good-guys/385002/4 "2006-12-21T01:23:21Z")
The Harrington spinoff book _Crown of Slaves_, and the two related short stories by Eric Flint, _From the Highlands_ and _Fanatic_. The last few books of the Harrington series itself, to a degree - the new Republic of Haven are _also_ the good guys. The Culture novels by Iain M. Banks; they are socialists, at least as far as our terms stretch to fit them, even if they aren’t revolutionaries. Star Trek, possibly; there’s debate over whether or not the Feds qualify as socialists. _1632_ and sequals by Eric Flint. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-sf-books-where-the-socialists-revolutionaries-are-the-good-guys/385002/5 "2006-12-21T01:29:05Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] _1632_ and sequels by Eric Flint. [/QUOTE] Well…some of them, maybe. Not Grantville by any means. But I suppose you could characterize the Ram Rebellion as being quasi-socialist. I’ll bet Wallenstein is having none of that in Prague! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-sf-books-where-the-socialists-revolutionaries-are-the-good-guys/385002/6 "2006-12-21T01:49:42Z")
[QUOTE=silenus] Well…some of them, maybe. Not Grantville by any means. But I suppose you could characterize the Ram Rebellion as being quasi-socialist. I’ll bet Wallenstein is having none of that in Prague! [/QUOTE] I’m thinking more about Gretchen and the Freedom Arches. As for Grantville - well, by the standards of the time they _are_ revolutionary and socialist. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-sf-books-where-the-socialists-revolutionaries-are-the-good-guys/385002/7 "2006-12-21T01:54:58Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] I’m thinking more about Gretchen and the Freedom Arches. As for Grantville - well, by the standards of the time they _are_ revolutionary and socialist. [/QUOTE] And unlike S.M. Stirling’s Nantucketers, they’re union men! ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-sf-books-where-the-socialists-revolutionaries-are-the-good-guys/385002/8 "2006-12-21T02:34:46Z")
In Firefly, the Browncoats are the crushed revolutionaries and the good guys. StG ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-sf-books-where-the-socialists-revolutionaries-are-the-good-guys/385002/9 "2006-12-21T02:40:05Z")
Jeez! The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, man. Cell based organization? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-sf-books-where-the-socialists-revolutionaries-are-the-good-guys/385002/10 "2006-12-21T03:18:42Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] The rebels don’t even **exist** yet in _Revenge of the Sith._ Also, it’s unclear whether the later Rebels have any plans for a new form of democracy that would avoid the systemic problems that caused the Old Republic to self-destruct. And there’s no indication at all they’re socialists or leftists of any kind. (The Emperor, OTOH, could be viewed as a Stalin figure – or Pierre or St. Just of the People’s Republic of Haven.) [/QUOTE] Sure the rebels exist - only politicians and no military, but they are founded and exist. That was the point of the whole “don’t make waves, act like good little senators, we’ll work from behind the scenes” bit, and to a lesser extent presenting that petition. And I’m not suggesting they have plans for any particular type of democracy, or that they’re pro-Democratic-Party-style positions, only that they’re pro-democracy (and anti-tyranny). ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-sf-books-where-the-socialists-revolutionaries-are-the-good-guys/385002/11 "2006-12-21T15:10:06Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] The Culture novels by Iain M. Banks; they are socialists, at least as far as our terms stretch to fit them, even if they aren’t revolutionaries. [/QUOTE] Beyond Socialist, I think. They’ve perfected the means of production for a start. _starts flicking through das Kapital_ ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-sf-books-where-the-socialists-revolutionaries-are-the-good-guys/385002/12 "2006-12-21T15:15:12Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] Jeez! The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, man. Cell based organization? [/QUOTE] For that matter, how about the perfect communism of _Stranger In A Strange Land_? Or the people at Callahan’s. They are definitely revolutionaries, and they are definitely communal. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-sf-books-where-the-socialists-revolutionaries-are-the-good-guys/385002/13 "2006-12-21T15:27:11Z")
_Weapon_ by Robert Mason. > **[Weapon: Mason, Robert: 9780399134470: Amazon.com: Books](https://www.amazon.com/Weapon-Robert-Mason/dp/0399134476)** > > Weapon \[Mason, Robert\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Weapon ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-sf-books-where-the-socialists-revolutionaries-are-the-good-guys/385002/14 "2006-12-21T16:10:22Z")
There’s [Spain](http://www.diesirae911.com/spain.html) [Rodriguez’](http://lambiek.net/artists/r/rodriguez.htm) [_Trashman,_](http://www.amazon.com/Trashman-Lives-Spain/dp/0930193741/sr=1-1/qid=1166715961/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-9788122-0265632?ie=UTF8&s=books) if comic books count. “Trashman: Agent of the Fifth International!” ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-sf-books-where-the-socialists-revolutionaries-are-the-good-guys/385002/15 "2006-12-21T16:45:01Z")
In Harry Harrison’s “Bill, The Galactic Hero” series the revolutionaries tend to be the good guys. As for the Culture novels, the impression I got was that the Culture was so wealthy that no one really worked at a job, aside from perhaps the occasional poor soul caught up in Special Contact work. And they typically weren’t full members of the Culture. Heck, a lot of the lower-end AIs were citizens as fully endowed with rights as their human “owners.” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-sf-books-where-the-socialists-revolutionaries-are-the-good-guys/385002/16 "2006-12-21T17:12:10Z")
wanna buy a _Runagate Rampant_, anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-sf-books-where-the-socialists-revolutionaries-are-the-good-guys/385002/17 "2006-12-21T17:13:01Z")
> [@](#): > > The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, man. Cell based organization? Revolutionaries, but it’s clear they’re not socialists. The situation in that book appears to be the equivalent of a gulag uprising in the old Soviet Union. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2006, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-sf-books-where-the-socialists-revolutionaries-are-the-good-guys/385002/18 "2006-12-21T17:26:00Z")
_Forever Peace_, in which the good guys end up spreading peace and love throughout the world using telepathy. Yeah. Uh-huh. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-sf-books-where-the-socialists-revolutionaries-are-the-good-guys/385002/19 "2006-12-22T14:30:40Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] In Harry Harrison’s “Bill, The Galactic Hero” series the revolutionaries tend to be the good guys. [QUOTE] I misspoke here. Meant to say “Harry Harrison’s ‘Stainless Steel Rat’ series.” ---
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-sf-books-where-the-socialists-revolutionaries-are-the-good-guys/385002/20 "2006-12-22T17:32:07Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] In Harry Harrison’s “Bill, The Galactic Hero” series the revolutionaries tend to be the good guys. I misspoke here. Meant to say “Harry Harrison’s ‘Stainless Steel Rat’ series.” [/QUOTE] Umm. In _Bill, the Galactic Hero_ the government was a bunch of evil, clueless morons (that’s how you know it is speculative fiction), so anyone resisting the government would be on the side of the angels, but I don’t know that any such were depicted. In _The Stainless Steel Rat_, the good guys were all criminals, not revolutionaries per se. My own example would be _Cryptonomicon_ by Neil Stephenson. The good guys were the ones setting up untraceable accounts so that drug lords and people like Hamas and Al Quaeda could launder money. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-sf-books-where-the-socialists-revolutionaries-are-the-good-guys/385002.md?page=2)