### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2007, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/1 "2007-01-31T04:45:01Z")
Follow-up on [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=276927) thread from 2004: [They’ve actually done it.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/25/AR2007012500232.html) A crowd-control weapon in the form of a ray gun that induces pain without inflicting permanent damage.
> [@](#):
>
> The military calls its new weapon an “active denial system,” but that’s an understatement. It’s a ray gun that shoots a beam that makes people feel as if they are about to catch fire.
>
> Apart from causing that terrifying sensation, the technology is supposed to be harmless \_ a non-lethal way to get enemies to drop their weapons.
>
> \
>
> The weapon is not expected to go into production until at least 2010, but all branches of the military have expressed interest in it, officials said.
Is this a step forward in non-lethal warfare, or a new chapter in the history of torture?
---
### Author:  [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2007, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/2 "2007-01-31T05:02:58Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
Follow-up on [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=276927) thread from 2004: [They’ve actually done it.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/25/AR2007012500232.html) A crowd-control weapon in the form of a ray gun that induces pain without inflicting permanent damage.
Is this a step forward in non-lethal warfare, or a new chapter in the history of torture?
[/QUOTE]
Could easily be both, of course, and I’m certain that it will be used for both purposes. It’s hard to say unequivocally, though. Has the taser ever been used as a torture device? I’d be surprised if it hasn’t.
---
### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2007, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/3 "2007-01-31T05:16:16Z")
Torture was the first thing that popped into my head. On the surface, I like the idea for Law Enforcement or for self-defense, but I can’t help feeling ambivalent about something which can cause great physical pain without leaving any evidence.
---
### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2007, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/4 "2007-01-31T06:38:00Z")
What shall we call it: The Freedom Fryer, or the Patriotism Persuader? 😃
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#):
>
> …but I can’t help feeling ambivalent about something which can cause great physical pain without leaving any evidence.
Did you read the article? Emphsis added:
> [@](#):
>
> Anyone hit by the beam immediately jumped out of its path because of the sudden blast of heat throughout the body. While the 130-degree heat was not painful, it was intense enough to make the participants think their clothes were about to ignite.
If we wanted to torture someone with 130 deg heat, it would be a lot easier to simply turn up the thermostat than to use this (presumably very expensive) weapon.
---
### Author:  [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2007, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/5 "2007-01-31T08:26:06Z")
I think being hot and feeling that your clothes are on fire is a bit of a different sensation. In water boarding you are in no actual danger, it’s just a very unpleasant sensation. I would imagine that if I felt like I was going to ignite I’d pony up information pretty quick.
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### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2007, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/6 "2007-01-31T08:26:31Z")
They had something like this back in the first couple of decades of the twentieth century, but I seem to recall the effects were more severe and permanent.
I’m skeptical of the claim that it’s harmless - in order to make it very painful, they must be playing quite close to the line at which damage to tissues occurs, and if that’s the case, variances in the effect from one individual to another due to things like range and type of clothing sensitivity of skin, plus variances in the vulnerability of different tissues - say skin vs eyes - would mean, I think, that people are going to be injured by this if it gets put into use.
Maybe that’s acceptable, given the application. I dunno.
---
### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2007, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/7 "2007-01-31T10:47:48Z")
I wonder if a thin layer of metal will stop the heating effect…maybe some kind of all-over tin foil suit?
---
### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2007, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/8 "2007-01-31T11:05:35Z")
[Frequently Frequently Asked Questions Regarding the Active Denial System](http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:W4LQhm41_LYJ:https://www.jnlwp.com/Resources/Misc/FAQ%2520FINAL%252031%2520OCT%252006.pdf+%22active+denial%22+injuries&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=5&client=firefox-a)
-From the DOD’s [Joint Non-Lethal Weapons Program site](https://www.jnlwp.com/)
> [@](#):
>
> 1. **How do you know it is safe?** Testing on the safety and effectiveness of ADS has been
> underway for more than 12 years. This testing has included more than 10,000 human exposures.
> There have been no injuries that have required medical attention during the testing of the
> Advanced Concept Technology Demonstration systems. Reactions are extremely rare, minor,
> temporary, and consist of a few very small (eraser-sized) skin blisters. Research shows there is a
> less than 1/10th of 1% chance of injury from ADS exposure. These findings have undergone six
> independent reviews. Normal, innate self-protect behaviors such as eye blink, head turn, and
> aversion all minimize the risk of injury. The energy only reaches a skin depth of about 1/64th of
> an inch, the equivalent of three sheets of paper. The sensation immediately ceases when the
> individual moves out of the beam.
> 2. **Have there ever been any injuries associated with ADS?** There have been no injuries that
> have required medical attention during the testing of the Advanced Concept Technology
> Demonstration systems. In January 1999, during early laboratory testing, there was an accidental
> overexposure that resulted in an injury that required limited medical treatment. It was a second-
> degree burn the size of a quarter. Since then, design configurations have been revised, and there
> have been no injuries that have required medical attention. The ACTD systems have hardware
> and software controls in place to prevent a similar incident from occurring
---
### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2007, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/9 "2007-01-31T11:07:05Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble]
I wonder if a thin layer of metal will stop the heating effect…maybe some kind of all-over tin foil suit?
[/QUOTE]
That might just turn you into a baked potato, though.
Colbert’s take on it was hilarious, especially after watching TV reporters subjecting themselves to a test unit, including one guy who zapped himself, yelled “ow!” _and then went back for a second shot_. Colbert showed his version - a 9-volt battery with LICK ME printed on it. Put these in your house, and no burglar will be able to resist interrupting his crime to, well, lick the battery repeatedly.
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### Author:  [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2007, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/10 "2007-01-31T11:34:53Z")
Another vote for this being both a useful tool as a non-damaging weapon, and a torture device. Overall, I support the idea, but I share the concerns other posters have mentioned with respect to the potential for abuse.
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### Author:  [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2007, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/11 "2007-01-31T12:36:32Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace]
What shall we call it: The Freedom Fryer, or the Patriotism Persuader? 😃
[/QUOTE]
[Neural Neutraliser?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagger_of_the_Mind) [Agoniser?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror%2C_Mirror_%28TOS_episode%29) 1920s style pain ray?
---
### Author:  [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2007, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/12 "2007-01-31T13:29:51Z")
If someone cannot see a device that produces a sudden and urgent desire to be somewhere else, as a potential torture device, they are being disingenious.
That said, I think this is a great invention. A quick and certain way to disband a mob with no injuries (or very minor ones) is a real step forward from what we have now. (Says the guy coming from a country where public manifestations gone wrong are a daily thing)
---
### Author:  [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2007, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/13 "2007-01-31T13:31:45Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout]
They had something like this back in the first couple of decades of the twentieth century, but I seem to recall the effects were more severe and permanent.
[/QUOTE]
:dubious: cite?
---
### Author:  [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2007, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/14 "2007-01-31T13:32:52Z")
[QUOTE=Pushkin]
[Neural Neutraliser?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagger_of_the_Mind) [Agoniser?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror%2C_Mirror_%28TOS_episode%29)
[/QUOTE]
I was wondering when somebody would break out the Klingon metaphors.
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### Author:  [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2007, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/15 "2007-01-31T13:35:16Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble]
I wonder if a thin layer of metal will stop the heating effect…maybe some kind of all-over tin foil suit?
[/QUOTE]
That, or it would help make sure you’re baked evenly all the way through!
I foresee unforeseen circumstances…zipper pulls somehow becoming extremely hot, blindness, **something**.
-Joe
---
### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2007, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/16 "2007-01-31T15:35:22Z")
[QUOTE=Sapo]
If someone cannot see a device that produces a sudden and urgent desire to be somewhere else, as a potential torture device, they are being disingenious.
[/QUOTE]
I think if someone offers that argument up, it’s a strawman. No has said in this thread it isn’t a potential torture device.
---
### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2007, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/17 "2007-01-31T15:45:55Z")
[QUOTE=Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor]
:dubious: cite?
[/QUOTE]
[OK](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=202225)
---
### Author:  [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2007, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/18 "2007-01-31T16:44:01Z")
I’m suspicious of it’s usefulness as an evidenceless torture device. If it actually brings skin temperature up to 130 degrees, that’s hot enough to cause a burn if left on for extended periods.
The system doesn’t cause damage because people turn away and move out of the beam quickly, not because it can’t cause damage.
Of course, if you don’t care about showing the results of your torture, it’s probaby a really nifty torture device, but then so are a lot of other things.
---
### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2007, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/19 "2007-01-31T16:49:56Z")
[QUOTE=Cheesesteak]
I’m suspicious of it’s usefulness as an evidenceless torture device. If it actually brings skin temperature up to 130 degrees, that’s hot enough to cause a burn if left on for extended periods.
The system doesn’t cause damage because people turn away and move out of the beam quickly, not because it can’t cause damage.
[/quote]
Yeah, that makes sense.
> [@](#):
>
> Of course, if you don’t care about showing the results of your torture, it’s probaby a really nifty torture device, but then so are a lot of other things.
Exactly. Why not just use 130 deg water? It’s a lot cheaper.
---
### Author:  [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)
#### Post date: [January 31, 2007, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/20 "2007-01-31T16:56:43Z")
Yeah, it’s not like torturers are sitting around thinking, “If only there were a way to apply heat to the victim in order to cause them pain. Well, I guess we’ll have to wait for some science-fiction heat ray, because applying heat is clearly beyond our current technology.”
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