# Military shows off "Active Denial System" (agony ray) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 31, 2007, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235 "2007-01-31T04:45:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/21 "2007-01-31T18:26:42Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] …but I can’t help feeling ambivalent about something which can cause great physical pain without leaving any evidence. [/QUOTE] At the Exploratorium in San Francisco several years ago, they had a neato display. Imagine three coils of copper tubing. The one on the left was somewhat hot - you could hold your hand on it, and it would be uncomfortable, but not really painful. The one on the left was cold - again, uncomfortable but not painful. The one in the middle alternated between that same hot, and that same cold, a couple of times per second. Put your hand on it, and for a short instant you could feel the alternating temps, but then: OWWWEEE! It felt like you had just placed your hand on a hot frying pan, and no one in our group was able to leave his hand on it for more than one second. Now _that’s_ a torture device, and no 94 GHz advanced technology required. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/22 "2007-01-31T18:39:00Z")
Yeah, but pulses of this ray shouldn’t leave any evidence. And if it creates such an uncomfortable experience, it sounds like the dream of every torturer. A way to inflict pain without ill effects and without leaving any marks. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/23 "2007-01-31T18:51:52Z")
I don’t understand this mindset with regards to this device. What is it about this device that bothers you? Is it because it could potentially be used to torture and the victim would have no physical evidence to show for it? How about dripping water on a forehead? Any device that can make belligerents drop weapons without harming them sounds like a Godsend. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/24 "2007-01-31T18:54:51Z")
CurtC: That hot/cold water trick works because of the way our temperature sensor nerves work. We have cold sensors and warm sensors. Cold sensors are stimulated by cold, warmth sensors are stimulated by warmth. But we don’t have “hot” sensors. What happens is that cold sensors are stimulated not just by cold but also by extreme heat. So the combination of cold sensors and warmth sensors going off together is interpreted by your brain as “hot”. And this is why extreme heat and cold are often misinterpreted by the brain…an ice cube can sometimes feel hot, or a foot in a hot bath sometimes feels cold. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/25 "2007-01-31T19:14:39Z")
Yeah, Lemur, they had that explanation at the Exploratorium too (after all, it is a science exhibit). But I just can’t summon the words to communicate what a _powerful_ effect it was - it no-kidding felt like my hand was sitting on a hot frying pan. And no tissue damage at all! When I first read about the ADS ray, and saw that it’s 94 GHz, I figured that it must work by stimulating the nerves, and not actually heating up tissue, because a) it works from hundreds of yards away, and b) it’s _really_ hard to generate any significant power at those frequencies. I’ve worked a little in that range, and microwatts is typical for what I’ve seen. I have no idea how they generate that much power at that frequency. Is it a phased array? The pics look like a single emitter feeding a dish reflector. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/26 "2007-01-31T19:17:50Z")
This device sounds pretty cool. Torture? Pshaw! Kid stuff compared with what the Thai police do and use. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/27 "2007-01-31T19:42:17Z")
[QUOTE=CurtC] Yeah, Lemur, they had that explanation at the Exploratorium too (after all, it is a science exhibit). But I just can’t summon the words to communicate what a _powerful_ effect it was - it no-kidding felt like my hand was sitting on a hot frying pan. And no tissue damage at all! When I first read about the ADS ray, and saw that it’s 94 GHz, I figured that it must work by stimulating the nerves, and not actually heating up tissue, because a) it works from hundreds of yards away, and b) it’s _really_ hard to generate any significant power at those frequencies. I’ve worked a little in that range, and microwatts is typical for what I’ve seen. I have no idea how they generate that much power at that frequency. Is it a phased array? The pics look like a single emitter feeding a dish reflector. [/QUOTE] Never fear, wikipedia is here. [ADS.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_denial_system) Looks like there is pain involved, if you stay exposed long enough. > [@](#): > > The ADS works by directing electromagnetic radiation at a frequency of 95 GHz[3] toward the subjects. The waves excite (see Excited state) water molecules in the epidermis (skin) to around 55 C (130 degrees Fahrenheit), causing an intensely painful burning sensation. While not actually burning the skin, the burning sensation is similar to that of a light bulb being pressed against the skin.[3] The focused beam can be directed at targets at a range of just under half a kilometer, or 500 yards[4]. The device can penetrate thick clothing, although not walls[4]. There is no indication on the feasibility of electromagnetically shielding a person from its effects with a wire mesh, in a similar manner that a microwave oven prevents radiation escaping. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/28 "2007-01-31T20:06:32Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] Yeah, it’s not like torturers are sitting around thinking, “If only there were a way to apply heat to the victim in order to cause them pain. Well, I guess we’ll have to wait for some science-fiction heat ray, because applying heat is clearly beyond our current technology.” [/QUOTE] This makes it easy to do at a distance, upon a large number of victims. It’s mass produced torture. [QUOTE=BwanaBob] Any device that can make belligerents drop weapons without harming them sounds like a Godsend. [/QUOTE] Or break up a protest. Or be beamed down into a room with no way to get out of the beam for a few hours, or days. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/29 "2007-01-31T20:11:26Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Or break up a protest. [/QUOTE] Not everyone thinks that’s a **bad** thing. See **Sapo’s** post #12. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/30 "2007-01-31T20:19:04Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Not everyone thinks that’s a **bad** thing. See **Sapo’s** post #12. [/QUOTE] “Mobs” and “protests” aren’t the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/31 "2007-01-31T20:19:43Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] This makes it easy to do at a distance, upon a large number of victims. It’s mass produced torture. [/QUOTE] What a stupid argument. A violent mob is threatening civil order. The police have several choices: Real bullets, rubber bullets, tasers, or ADS. Which is the best choice? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/32 "2007-01-31T20:27:00Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Or break up a protest. [/quote] Well, yes, but so can tanks, or machine guns, or chemical weapons. This would be a way to break up a protest without killing a bunch of people, which makes it an improvement over the old ways of breaking up protests. Of course, generally speaking, breaking up peaceful protests is a bad thing, but that’s a political problem, not a technological problem. Banning or suppressing this technology won’t prevent oppressive governments from breaking up protests, it’ll just mean they have to use more lethal methods to do it. > [@](#): > > Or be beamed down into a room with no way to get out of the beam for a few hours, or days. Yes, but so what? As has been pointed out, there are lots of ways to use heat to torture someone that doesn’t require expensive Star Trek technology. The torture concern with this device is that it doesn’t leave any marks, but that’s only under situations where the victim can get out of the beam quickly. Belting someone down and holding the beam on them for long periods would leave obvious signs of torture, and if you’re talking about a regime that doesn’t care about leaving obvious signs of torture, a hot poker would be a much more effective torture implement than this ray gun. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/33 "2007-01-31T20:28:23Z")
You left out firehoses. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/34 "2007-01-31T21:34:57Z")
[QUOTE=CurtC] You left out firehoses. [/QUOTE] Good only if the water is heated to 130 deg F. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/35 "2007-01-31T22:06:19Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] “Mobs” and “protests” aren’t the same thing. [/QUOTE] Thank you. I am not talking about 20 minivan-driving moms with “save the whales” placards. I am talking about masked rioters throwing molotovs at the police. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/36 "2007-01-31T22:08:25Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Yes, but so what? As has been pointed out, there are lots of ways to use heat to torture someone that doesn’t require expensive Star Trek technology. The torture concern with this device is that it doesn’t leave any marks, but that’s only under situations where the victim can get out of the beam quickly. Belting someone down and holding the beam on them for long periods would leave obvious signs of torture, and if you’re talking about a regime that doesn’t care about leaving obvious signs of torture, a hot poker would be a much more effective torture implement than this ray gun. [/QUOTE] You need to dial up your evil-o-meter. Think of a padded room with an unrestrained victim where you pulse him for a couple secs, again and again, for days. No marks, all pain. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/37 "2007-01-31T22:15:41Z")
Sapo, I am sure that this device could be used in cruel ways, but as others have pointed out, there are myriad ways that a sufficiently sadistic and creative person could come up with, using low-tech stuff. And most of those are much less expensive and much more available than the agony-ray. Being usable as a torture device in itself isn’t much of an argument against it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/38 "2007-01-31T22:17:04Z")
[QUOTE=Sapo] You need to dial up your evil-o-meter. Think of a padded room with an unrestrained victim where you pulse him for a couple secs, again and again, for days. No marks, all pain. [/QUOTE] I’m unconvinced that you could operate this on someone for a prolonged period of time and have it not leave marks. It’s meant to be used in situations where people are going to want to get out of the way fast. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/39 "2007-01-31T22:18:32Z")
[QUOTE=CurtC] Sapo, I am sure that this device could be used in cruel ways, but as others have pointed out, there are myriad ways that a sufficiently sadistic and creative person could come up with, using low-tech stuff. And most of those are much less expensive and much more available than the agony-ray. Being usable as a torture device in itself isn’t much of an argument against it. [/QUOTE] Exactly. Otherwise “American Idol” or songs sung by Barbara Streisand could be considered torture devices. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235/40 "2007-01-31T22:21:51Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I’m unconvinced that you could operate this on someone for a prolonged period of time and have it not leave marks. It’s meant to be used in situations where people are going to want to get out of the way fast. [/QUOTE] Only one way to know! I wonder where could we find a country with 75 million volunteers that we don’t particularly like? (And FTR, I am all for this ADS as a useful tool for crowd control, as I have said since my first post in this thread. That it can be misused is a regrettable side effect that is in no way exclusive to this new technology) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-shows-off-active-denial-system-agony-ray/390235.md?page=3)