# Military Spending for VERY questionable medical procedures **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 20, 2008, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-spending-for-very-questionable-medical-procedures/478078 "2008-12-20T16:51:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-spending-for-very-questionable-medical-procedures/478078/21 "2008-12-24T09:24:55Z")
The military doesn’t care about how stuff works. They care about results. Acupuncture may or may not work, and if it does it’s probably only the placebo effect, but who cares? If it does what they want it to, why not use it? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-spending-for-very-questionable-medical-procedures/478078/22 "2008-12-24T09:26:57Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > And yet there _is_ a mountain of evidence, as **DrDeth** so kindly pointed out. Why treat it as “hooey”, then? > > _Au contrare_, there are studies which demonstrate the effectiveness of traditional Chinese acupunture over a control group which was randomly pricked with needles: > [http://nccam.nih.gov/news/newsletter/2005\_winter/acupuncture.htm](http://nccam.nih.gov/news/newsletter/2005_winter/acupuncture.htm) The dropout rate in that study was a horrendous 25%, resulting in an editors warning about the conclusions. Three years later the Annals published a more thorough study showing no benefit from acupuntcure that could not be explained via placebo. [http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/abstract/145/1/12](http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/abstract/145/1/12) ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-spending-for-very-questionable-medical-procedures/478078/23 "2008-12-24T10:20:56Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > Chaplains also provide counseling and, indeed, may be the only source of psychological support under some circumstances. > > Robin What is the closest an army chaplain will get to the ‘frontline’? Will/are they expected to be able to do anything other than ‘godly’ duties? Do they have to know first aid procedures, for instance? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-spending-for-very-questionable-medical-procedures/478078/24 "2008-12-24T13:26:11Z")
Please note that the type of acupuncture mentioned in this story involves using needles _in the ear alone_ to heal other parts of the body. To me, this is like turning your ear into a voodoo doll. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-spending-for-very-questionable-medical-procedures/478078/25 "2008-12-24T13:45:49Z")
Next they’ll be using dowsing to clear minefields. :smack::rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-spending-for-very-questionable-medical-procedures/478078/26 "2008-12-24T14:44:19Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > What is the closest an army chaplain will get to the ‘frontline’? Will/are they expected to be able to do anything other than ‘godly’ duties? Do they have to know first aid procedures, for instance? Yeah, actually there are lots of noteworthy examples of this. Some chaplains have even won the Medal of Honor. [Here’s one example - Father Charles Liteky.](http://www.homeofheroes.com/e-books/mohS_chaplains/page_10liteky.html) > [@](#): > > Chaplain Liteky distinguished himself by exceptional heroism while serving with Company A, 4th Battalion, 12th Infantry, 199th Light Infantry Brigade. He was participating in a search and destroy operation when Company A came under intense fire from a battalion size enemy force. > > Momentarily stunned from the immediate encounter that ensued, the men hugged the ground for cover. Observing 2 wounded men, Chaplain Liteky moved to within 15 meters of an enemy machinegun position to reach them, placing himself between the enemy and the wounded men. When there was a brief respite in the fighting, he managed to drag them to the relative safety of the landing zone. > > Inspired by his courageous actions, the company rallied and began placing a heavy volume of fire upon the enemy’s positions. In a magnificent display of courage and leadership, Chaplain Liteky began moving upright through the enemy fire, administering last rites to the dying and evacuating the wounded. > > Noticing another trapped and seriously wounded man, Chaplain Liteky crawled to his aid. Realizing that the wounded man was too heavy to carry, he rolled on his back, placed the man on his chest and through sheer determination and fortitude crawled back to the landing zone using his elbows and heels to push himself along. pausing for breath momentarily, he returned to the action and came upon a man entangled in the dense, thorny underbrush. Once more intense enemy fire was directed at him, but Chaplain Liteky stood his ground and calmly broke the vines and carried the man to the landing zone for evacuation. On several occasions when the landing zone was under small arms and rocket fire, Chaplain Liteky stood up in the face of hostile fire and personally directed the medivac helicopters into and out of the area. With the wounded safely evacuated, Chaplain Liteky returned to the perimeter, constantly encouraging and inspiring the men. > > Upon the unit’s relief on the morning of 7 December 1967, it was discovered that despite painful wounds in the neck and foot, Chaplain Liteky had personally carried over 20 men to the landing zone for evacuation during the savage fighting. Through his indomitable inspiration and heroic actions, Chaplain Liteky saved the lives of a number of his comrades and enabled the company to repulse the enemy. Chaplain Liteky’s actions reflect great credit upon himself and were in keeping with the highest traditions of the U.S. Army. Father Liteky later renounced his medal and the pension attached to it in protest of the government’s operation of the School of the Americas. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-spending-for-very-questionable-medical-procedures/478078/27 "2008-12-24T15:15:13Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > The military doesn’t care about how stuff works. They care about results. Acupuncture may or may not work, and if it does it’s probably only the placebo effect, but who cares? If it does what they want it to, why not use it? Medicines that perform no better than placebo aren’t said to work. Outperforming the placebo effect is the standard. Besides, why ‘train’ doctors and medics in expensive and time-consuming needle-poking routines when you can just hand out sugar pills? ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-spending-for-very-questionable-medical-procedures/478078/28 "2008-12-25T14:13:11Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > What is the closest an army chaplain will get to the ‘frontline’? Will/are they expected to be able to do anything other than ‘godly’ duties? Do they have to know first aid procedures, for instance? Mr. Moto spoke to that. And, yes, chaplains may be clergy, but they’re also expected to be soldiers, sailors or airmen, whatever the case may be. Chaplains are also able to advocate on behalf of individuals to the chain of command. For example, the parents of a navy buddy of mine were in ill health. My buddy was able to get a hardship discharge because the chaplain was able to get through the chain of command to plead his case. That being said, they are generally nobody’s fools and the ones I’ve known knew when they were being played. Robin ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-spending-for-very-questionable-medical-procedures/478078/29 "2008-12-26T14:21:54Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > _Au contrare_, there are studies which demonstrate the effectiveness of traditional Chinese acupunture over a control group which was randomly pricked with needles: > [http://nccam.nih.gov/news/newsletter/2005\_winter/acupuncture.htm](http://nccam.nih.gov/news/newsletter/2005_winter/acupuncture.htm) The overall verdict on acupuncture for osteoarthritis is [not so good](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acupuncture): _“For osteoarthritis, reviews since 2006 show a trivial difference between sham and true acupuncture.”_ The Cochrane organization is in the midst of another literature review on this subject. One problem with summarizing research on acupuncture is that a lot of the studies come out of places where it is a tradition, i.e. China. And it was noted (in the book _Snake Oil Science_) that studies published in Chinese scientific journals are overwhelmingly (on the order of 100%) favorable towards acupuncture conducted for whatever reason. In western nations, the percentage of positive results falls to 50% or less. Regarding battlefield acupuncture, [here’s a good takedown](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/12/battlefield_acupuncture_revisited_only_t.php) of its supposed success. It’s been mentioned that having military docs analyzing subjective measures of pain relief may not be the most accurate method of determining outcomes. “You’re feeling better after acupuncture, aren’t you soldier?” “Yessir!!” :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-spending-for-very-questionable-medical-procedures/478078/30 "2008-12-26T14:32:18Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Regarding battlefield acupuncture, [here’s a good takedown](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/12/battlefield_acupuncture_revisited_only_t.php) of its supposed success. It’s been mentioned that having military docs analyzing subjective measures of pain relief may not be the most accurate method of determining outcomes. “You’re feeling better after acupuncture, aren’t you soldier?” “Yessir!!” :dubious: From the Colonel hisself: > [@](#): > > I find it fascinating that our ancestors knew of acupuncture points that dealt with a spirit pathway, spirit court, spirit hall, spirit ruins, spirit storehouse, spirit support, spirit gate, spirit tower, spirit path, spirit court, etc.1(425-426) I am unsure what these spiritual sanctuaries do or how to incorporate them into my practice, but the fact that they exist is in itself very exciting. This quack is teaching other military doctors to stick needles in the ears of our enlisted personnel? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-spending-for-very-questionable-medical-procedures/478078.md?page=1)