# Military: Up or out **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 24, 2010, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-up-or-out/544349 "2010-06-24T13:46:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-up-or-out/544349/21 "2010-06-24T17:51:35Z")
As a former Navy officer, I just wanted to comment on what a outstanding group of replies the prior posters have made. I really don’t have much to add. > [@Alessan](#): > > It’s also assumed that an officer happy with his position is automatically lacking in drive and ambition, which makes him a de facto bad officer. As far as the military is concerned, aggresiveness is something that needs to be cultivated. > [@alphaboi867](#): > > That makes sense for line officers, but what about say officers in the health services like medical, nursing, or dental officers? Hell doctors \*start out \*at O-3 (Captain/Lieutenant) which is a pretty high rank to begin with. Physicians tend to be the exception, because the military is almost always short on medical officers. The overriding factor for retention is “the needs of the Army/Navy/Air Force.” If the military is short on physicians, which they usually are, they will indeed relax the “up or out” philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-up-or-out/544349/22 "2010-06-24T21:38:39Z")
Part of the “up … or out” is dictated by the structure. The military is a strict hierarchy; a classic pyramid organization chart. Which means there are fewer and fewer spots available as you go up in rank. So they put a lot of emphasis on ‘weeding out’ the average or non-aggressive ones along the way. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-up-or-out/544349/23 "2010-06-24T21:55:56Z")
“Other” is not a bar to promotion, however. A competent staff officer who does not want to be (first) in command, but to aid in planning or logistics and carry out the commander’s orders by giving orders of his own consonant with them, can move up, from staff to a battalion commander to staff to a brigade commander, then staff to a division or a corps commander. IIRC MacArthur had a team who moved up the ranks with him, a couple of Major and Lieutenant Generals who had spent their entire career as staff officers. ---
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-up-or-out/544349/24 "2010-06-24T22:10:35Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > “Other” is not a bar to promotion, however. A competent staff officer who does not want to be (first) in command, but to aid in planning or logistics and carry out the commander’s orders by giving orders of his own consonant with them, can move up, from staff to a battalion commander to staff to a brigade commander, then staff to a division or a corps commander. IIRC MacArthur had a team who moved up the ranks with him, a couple of Major and Lieutenant Generals who had spent their entire career as staff officers. Such officers would still be in charge of larger and larger staffs as they moved up and would have bigger responsibilities, at least in scope. [QUOTE=alphaboi867] That makes sense for line officers, but what about say officers in the health services like medical, nursing, or dental officers? Hell doctors start out at O-3 (Captain/Lieutenant) which is a pretty high rank to begin with. [/QUOTE] The overall mentality can still apply for non-line officers, since no matter what branch they are in a particular service, there are still commanders or people in charge and still positions that carry more responsibility than others. For example, in the Army and Navy, JAG officers are not line officers. If a new JAG officer started out in a legal assistance office and was strongly opposed to doing or trying any other type of legal work (not that they would really have a choice about being re-assigned at some point), they probably would not be very strong candidates to be a staff judge advocate or deputy staff judge advocate running the JAG shop and advising a base commander or commanding general about a wide variety of legal issues. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-up-or-out/544349/25 "2010-06-24T22:14:37Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I’ve just looked at a photo of my dad’s youngest brother. He appears to have been a [CPO](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CPO_GC.png). I don’t know when the photo was taken, or how long he served afterward, or if he was ever promoted above E-7. He has four gold hash marks toward the end of his sleeve. > > My uncle told me that he really, really wanted to fly. His CO told him he could send him to OCS, he would become an officer, and then he could be a Naval Aviator. But my uncle told me that he liked his rank and didn’t want to ‘put up with all of the bullshit that officer have to’. He said he considered joining the Army, but didn’t particularly want to be sent to Vietnam considering the mortality rate of new Huey pilots. Smart, my uncle. Not very brave, but… 😛 Four gold hashmarks means 16 years service without disciplinary action. Going to OCS in the Navy from an enlisted rank is not easy. There are programs such as Limited Duty Officer (LDO) and warrant officer (CWO) programs for senior enlisted, but they are highly competitive. An LDO may work in the aviation community, but he’s not going to be a pilot. There was also a program called NESEP (Naval Enlisted Scientific Education Program) that sent E-5 and above to a four-year college to major in either science, engineering or math. Again, I’m pretty sure these guys didn’t end up in a cockpit. I know that Army CWOs pilot choppers, but am not sure about the Navy. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-up-or-out/544349/26 "2010-06-24T22:21:01Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Four gold hashmarks means 16 years service without disciplinary action. Going to OCS in the Navy from an enlisted rank is not easy. There are programs such as Limited Duty Officer (LDO) and warrant officer (CWO) programs for senior enlisted, but they are highly competitive. An LDO may work in the aviation community, but he’s not going to be a pilot. There was also a program called NESEP (Naval Enlisted Scientific Education Program) that sent E-5 and above to a four-year college to major in either science, engineering or math. Again, I’m pretty sure these guys didn’t end up in a cockpit. I know that Army CWOs pilot choppers, but am not sure about the Navy. AFAIK only the Army lets Warrants be pilots. I could be wrong, though. My ex-fiancée was a Warrant, and she flew Black Hawks in the Gulf War. I think my dad’s enlisted rating was Airborne Electronics Technician, or something like that. He was in AEW Skyraiders during the Korean War. He told me once that he was doing radar intercepts in a Connie in an exercise with the Air Force. (Navy stomped them.) He said he thought that his performance during that exercise is what prompted his CO to send him off to become an officer. I don’t know when this exercise is, but I believe he was commissioned as Ensign in 1956. He’s a Lieutenant in the photo I linked earlier, and was a Traffic (Communications) officer in CLG-5 USS _Oklahoma City_. . ---
**Author:** ![flyboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4da419/32.png) [@flyboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flyboy)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-up-or-out/544349/27 "2010-06-25T00:45:25Z")
In the past few years, the Navy has implemented a small program to let Warrants fly. But it is not geared toward having them fly true operational combat missions AFAIK. Whereas the Warrants in the Army are the backbone of Army air power (at least, that’s my understanding of Army aviation). ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-up-or-out/544349/28 "2010-06-25T16:22:10Z")
Don’t a lot of people described by the OP end up leaving their active duty service and go into their state’s National Guard? I thought the up and out requirement for the National Guard was a lot less stringent, hence you could fly or whatever for a lot longer. ---
**Author:** ![Ispolkom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47774/32.png) [@Ispolkom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ispolkom)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-up-or-out/544349/29 "2010-06-25T16:38:16Z")
> [@flyboy](#): > > In the past few years, the Navy has implemented a small program to let Warrants fly. But it is not geared toward having them fly true operational combat missions AFAIK. Whereas the Warrants in the Army are the backbone of Army air power (at least, that’s my understanding of Army aviation). I thought that was a distinction between the Air Force and the Army. If you’re an Air Force helicopter pilot you will end up in a command or staff position, even if what you really want to do is fly helicopters, because of up-or-out. While if your an Army helicopter pilot you can be promoted but still stay in a flying gig as a Warrant Officer. ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-up-or-out/544349/30 "2010-06-25T17:04:52Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Four gold hashmarks means 16 years service without disciplinary action. Going to OCS in the Navy from an enlisted rank is not easy. There are programs such as Limited Duty Officer (LDO) and warrant officer (CWO) programs for senior enlisted, but they are highly competitive. An LDO may work in the aviation community, but he’s not going to be a pilot. There was also a program called NESEP (Naval Enlisted Scientific Education Program) that sent E-5 and above to a four-year college to major in either science, engineering or math. Again, I’m pretty sure these guys didn’t end up in a cockpit. I know that Army CWOs pilot choppers, but am not sure about the Navy. NESEP grads are unrestricted line officers and can go into any community. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-up-or-out/544349.md?page=1)