# Military using animals for training **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-using-animals-for-training/498875 "2009-06-05T21:21:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-using-animals-for-training/498875/1 "2009-06-05T21:21:56Z")
> **[Videos renew debate on military use of animals - CNN.com](https://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/06/05/military.animals.training/index.html)** > > Newly released videos are raising questions about the military's continued use of live animals in simulated battlefield medical training. The military says that the training exercises are a necessary part of saving the lives of service personnel (some of them involve injecting animals with nerve agents and then military personnel revive them, with evidently no long-term problems). There are regulations, and the videos show that the military sometimes violates them. Is it ok to use animals for this type of training? We use them in other kinds of live-saving research. I wish we didn’t have to do it, but within limits, I think it’s an unavoidable side-effect of our defense capabilities. What do you think? ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-using-animals-for-training/498875/2 "2009-06-05T21:52:13Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > [Videos renew debate on military use of animals - CNN.com](http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/06/05/military.animals.training/index.html) > > I wish we didn’t have to do it, but within limits, I think it’s an unavoidable side-effect of our defense capabilities. I have the same feeling. I consider myself an animal person (except for cats _shudder_) and I wouldn’t want to see an animal die unnecessarily. However… If an 18D kills a goat and is able to use that knowledge to save a bunch of people, I think it’s worth it. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-using-animals-for-training/498875/3 "2009-06-05T22:43:34Z")
Should this be in Cafe Society? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-using-animals-for-training/498875/4 "2009-06-06T02:01:46Z")
The bird is dead. The goat is dead. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-using-animals-for-training/498875/5 "2009-06-06T11:32:18Z")
I think this is better suited for Great Debates, so I’ll go ahead and move it for you. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-using-animals-for-training/498875/6 "2009-06-06T12:56:55Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > The military says that the training exercises are a necessary part of saving the lives of service personnel (some of them involve injecting animals with nerve agents and then military personnel revive them, with evidently no long-term problems). There are regulations, and the videos show that the military sometimes violates them. Live pigs have been used for ballistic testing of bullets since well - since ballistic testing was done. Warning, [Video not for the squeamish, live pigs being shot](http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4738639146828200667) Pig flesh is a very close substitute for human flesh in this regard. It bothers me more that people eat baconators without bothering to think where that yummy bacon came from, much less the hamburger. > [@](#): > > I wish we didn’t have to do it, but within limits, I think it’s an unavoidable side-effect of our defense capabilities. I’m not trying to single you out, it’s very pervasive; but it’s almost bizarre the way the word defense is used, rather than military, or war fighting. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-using-animals-for-training/498875/7 "2009-06-06T13:09:55Z")
It’s a shame that occasionally the animals die in these exercises, however, I don’t think that a truly accurate simulation could be generated here. These guys need to know what it feels like to lose a life. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-using-animals-for-training/498875/8 "2009-06-06T13:24:50Z")
Our society is viciously cruel to animals just in general. It’s silly to single out military uses as a point of outrage. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-using-animals-for-training/498875/9 "2009-06-06T16:34:45Z")
We kill millions of animals every day worldwide just because we like the taste of them(myself included)so if people live as a result of an animals death in an exercise then its ethically one up on that. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-using-animals-for-training/498875/10 "2009-06-06T17:02:31Z")
Well, I’d hope that the edible ones (that is, the ones that aren’t dangerous to consume because of poisons administered) are at least eaten after being killed, or put to some other use, but I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![Oukile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@Oukile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oukile)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/military-using-animals-for-training/498875/11 "2009-06-07T09:55:15Z")
First point: These training sessions are performed on anesthetized animals, which are not killed. The adverse effects for the animal are very limited, whereas the benefits for the people who train are important. This seems quite ethical to me. However, second point: > [@](#): > > The military says […] > Jamie Campbell, a former U.S. Army medic, says […] > The PCRM argues that […] > > Military officials say the use of animals is conducted under strict compliance with animal welfare regulations. > […] > “Treating a goat with an artificially created wound is very different from caring for a human casualty,” Ferdowsian added. When it comes to ehtics, you can argue endlessly, especially when you are debating in the media or on some other kind of public space, where actual facts matter very little. As the millitary point out, there are regulations about what is allowed. If the PCRM has something specific to reproach to the millitary, let it file an actual complaint for violation of ethical rules. With actual facts in it. Anyway, third point: let’s read again what the PCRM complains about and go for some point-by-point reply: > [@](#): > > “Battlefield medics and others caring for our troops should receive state-of-the-art, human-centered training,” One nice sentence which sounds nice but acually means nothing (you can try to figure out what it means concretely and you will realize that you can come to one hundrer different interpretations) > [@](#): > > the PCRM’s Hope Ferdowsian said in a news release. "Training with goats and monkeys is inhumane Booooooh it’s inhumane. It’s not as if the military were giving anestethics to the animals. That would be or humane thing to do. Oh, wait a sec, don’t they give anesthetics ? > [@](#): > > and violates military animal welfare regulations. Which regulation ? If you have some actual violation to complain about, just say it ! > [@](#): > > It also offers an inferior educational experience. > > “Treating a goat with an artificially created wound is very different from caring for a human casualty,” Ferdowsian added. Sure ! What do you suggest, training on human subjects ? So much more ethical ! Using some simulation ? So much more efficient ! And well, fourth, without going into the _ad hominem_ arguments, a little google and a look at their website shows that the PCRM is an an-animal-experimentation organization. Of course I’m not trying to insinuate that these organization are fundamentally lacking objectivity. Or, am I ?