# Millennials and Democracy. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2018, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millennials-and-democracy/819866 "2018-08-19T05:52:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millennials-and-democracy/819866/21 "2018-08-20T11:34:01Z")
The alternative to democracy is not authoritarianism. Democracies can be authoritarian or not. The key is being able to escape the reach of government. This brings freedom because the state doesn’t want to scare you off. If you have large powerful governments, sometimes it takes quite an effort to escape it. Sometimes you must travel to distant locales that do not share your culture. Some easily escapable governments are Singapore, Hong Kong, Monaco, Liechtenstein, and Switzerland. You can escape these places and still remain in the same basic culture and you don’t have to go far. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millennials-and-democracy/819866/22 "2018-08-20T11:50:59Z")
As to generational differences, the WWII generation largely grew up in the Depression. They didn’t understand the economics of it, and thus they thought FDR’s statist plays were simply the government being nice to people. Then they were inculcated with immense amounts of pro-government propaganda for the war. The Boomers were Fed a steady stream of propaganda from birth. They were idealogues who basically destroyed the government they loved so much. Gen Xers are pragmatic and came up during the 1970, the height of postwar anti-state sentiment. Reagan made the Boomers swoon with ideological love of country once again. The gen Xers got into the saddle around the dot-com bubble. They are a scrappy bunch with some good knowledge, but there aren’t enough of them. The millenials came of age at what seemed like the joyous end of time. The 90s were carefree and then the world ended with 9-11. They were frazzled by this and the accompanying propaganda nixed any hope of a teenage rejection of the state. They came of age punch-drunk and unable to integrate into the economic system. State schools had taught them to follow processes. Without a guide, those that did not stick to the script floundered in the housing bust. Their love of Obama was idealistic, and his ineffective presidency jaded them. The rise of Trump should have any sensible person questioning democracy. I don’t think the book can be written on the millennials quite yet. -WillFarnaby, millennial ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millennials-and-democracy/819866/23 "2018-08-20T12:17:10Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > This kind of illogical paranoia is where I get bored and wander off looking for more reasonable discussion. > > Yes,I know that in the course of human events, revolutions have happened. And once, We the people actually succeeded. > > But today’s society is nowhere near as divided by the level of hatred that we lived through in the 1960’s; a time when 10’s of thousands of national guard troops were mobilized in a hundred cities across the land, and blood ran in the streets-- of the ghettos, and at the Democratic convention in Chicago. > > Today’s prophets of doom seem to _enjoy_ prepping for a right-wing/Christian takeover. > And they look as silly as those preppers who’ve spent years preparing for nuclear war, and love to show off their stores of guns and food hidden in their cabin up in the mountains. We live in different times, with different threats. It’s true that we don’t have tens of thousands of rioters clashing with tens of thousands of national guard troops, but who’s to say that it can’t happen at some point. What’s occurring right now is, in many ways, unprecedented. A presidential election that may have very well been decided by the involvement of a foreign rival power. A presidency that is gaslighting the country. A presidency that has made clear its contempt for human rights and fundamental liberties of free speech and the press. A presidency that has tried to undermine and weaken the institutions that support these liberties. A presidency and congress that seem interested in trying to suppress voting. A presidency and congress that have essentially rigged taxation to promote and protect the wealth of the plutocratic class and make everyone else pay for it. I’d posit that the only reason we haven’t seen civil unrest is that we’re in the beginning stages and the consequences of this government haven’t been fully appreciated, but in time, people will no doubt see this corruption for what it is. And we’d be foolish not to be both outraged about the present and fearful about what might happen next. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millennials-and-democracy/819866/24 "2018-08-20T15:52:25Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > We live in different times, with different threats. > > It’s true that we don’t have tens of thousands of rioters clashing with tens of thousands of national guard troops, but who’s to say that it can’t happen at some point. > > What’s occurring right now is, in many ways, unprecedented. A presidential election that may have very well been decided by the involvement of a foreign rival power. A presidency that is gaslighting the country. A presidency that has made clear its contempt for human rights and fundamental liberties of free speech and the press. A presidency that has tried to undermine and weaken the institutions that support these liberties. A presidency and congress that seem interested in trying to suppress voting. A presidency and congress that have essentially rigged taxation to promote and protect the wealth of the plutocratic class and make everyone else pay for it. I’d posit that the only reason we haven’t seen civil unrest is that we’re in the beginning stages and the consequences of this government haven’t been fully appreciated, but in time, people will no doubt see this corruption for what it is. And we’d be foolish not to be both outraged about the present and fearful about what might happen next. This is nonsense. As long as democracy has existed, there have been crazy people stirring up crazy fears. Hopefully as people get older they find the nuts and their doom saying less appealing because they can remember all the past times the nuts have been wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millennials-and-democracy/819866/25 "2018-08-20T16:18:49Z")
Part of the change might be a more global world view, particularly in light of the recent wars. The question was “is it essential to live in a Democracy”. Many people can live in China, Russia, Saudi Arabia and Iran, just fine, and then attempts to turn Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria into democracies has left them much worse off than before. So it is clear that on a global scale, Democracy may be nice but its not essential. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millennials-and-democracy/819866/26 "2018-08-20T16:27:44Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Yes. But these autocrats and buffoons are elected by democratic processes. (Trump got only 46% of the popular vote instead of 48% but let’s please cease sniveling about this minor detail.) > > Millennials should be our hope, but most don’t vote at all. Among those who do, many vote for R/Tyranny. (And a few of the 100+ IQ Millennials try to demonstrate their “superiority” by voting for simpletons like Gary Johnson. :smack: ) Voter turnout increases with age. [http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/04/03/millennials-approach-baby-boomers-as-largest-generation-in-u-s-electorate/ft\_16-05-13\_millennialvoters\_turnout-2/](http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/04/03/millennials-approach-baby-boomers-as-largest-generation-in-u-s-electorate/ft_16-05-13_millennialvoters_turnout-2/) [http://www.electproject.org/\_/rsrc/1494447247346/home/voter-turnout/demographics/Turnout\_by\_age.png](http://www.electproject.org/_/rsrc/1494447247346/home/voter-turnout/demographics/Turnout_by_age.png) Hopefully as the millennials get older their turnout will increase. Supposedly there will be 90 million eligible millennial voters in 2020, and turnout may be 50-55%, so nearly 50 million millennial voters in the 2020 presidential election. My understanding is 40% of millennials are non-white, and of the 60% who are white they are somewhat to the left of white boomers. So hopefully it’ll move politics to the left eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millennials-and-democracy/819866/27 "2018-08-20T16:32:21Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > I’m calling it illogical paranoia because it _is_ paranoia. > There is nothing to be afraid of. > After 12 noon on inauguration day 2020 or 2024, Trump will no longer be president. Anything he does will be a joke, not something to be afraid of. > > Yes, Trump may act stupidly that day,staying in the White House bedroom in his pyjamas and sleeping till the afternoon. > He may even hold a competing rally of his supporters elsewhere in Washington, and then declare that his rally was bigger than the inauguration ceremony, so he’s still the big cheese. > Foxnews might even show it on a split screen. > > But , so what? > No matter what he does or says, he will not be president. > He won’t be creating some kind of threat to democracy. > He wont be leading masses of revolutionaries in the streets. > He wont even have the authority to tell the White House chef to make him a cheeseburger. > > There is nothing to be afraid of. I’m not disagreeing with you. But the point was that Trump may not leave office voluntarilty. He may have to be forced out by the next guys secret service detail. I agree, Trump can’t just sit in the oval office and say ‘I’m still president’ in 2021 or 2025. As far as I know he (hopefully) has no legal power to do so. However I wouldn’t put it past him to try. And this whole experience with Trump is moving the overton window on what is acceptable behavior in politics. The GOP keeps getting more and more racist, deranged, incompetent and anti-democracy and it doesn’t cost them any votes. No matter how bad Trump fucks everything up he is still guaranteed 60 million votes. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millennials-and-democracy/819866/28 "2018-08-20T19:30:55Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This is nonsense. As long as democracy has existed, there have been crazy people stirring up crazy fears. Hopefully as people get older they find the nuts and their doom saying less appealing because they can remember all the past times the nuts have been wrong. Nothing about this is “nonsense.” **Asahi** has accurately described the situation. Trump’s administration is the most corrupt we’ve seen since Nixon, and Trump’s own naked contempt for democracy, truth, and American values in general are indeed unprecedented and terrifying. The only saving grace so far is his own astonishing incompetence. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millennials-and-democracy/819866/29 "2018-08-20T20:13:48Z")
Well, it seems to me that the biggest problem we face is that everyone seems to think that we live in democracy. IIRC from my High School Civics class, we live in a democratic republic, which functions fundamentally differently from a democracy. Maybe that’s the disconnect certain people have when trying to figure out why their version of reality doesn’t necessarily match up with actual reality. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millennials-and-democracy/819866/30 "2018-08-20T23:20:34Z")
> [@JB99](#): > > Nothing about this is “nonsense.” **Asahi** has accurately described the situation. Trump’s administration is the most corrupt we’ve seen since Nixon, and Trump’s own naked contempt for democracy, truth, and American values in general are indeed unprecedented and terrifying. The only saving grace so far is his own astonishing incompetence. To me, Trump’s attempt at a power grab isn’t the most terrifying part; it’s the fact that a minimum of 40% of people in this country don’t understand the dangers of what he and republicans are doing. And even beyond that 40%, there are probably another 20-25% who don’t like Trump but are so checked out that they just don’t seem to care about politics generally. I keep going back to the fact that the worst regime in modern history, the Nazis, took power in a democracy, but needing only 37% of the vote to do it. We’ve already seen in this country a disturbing trend with increasing frequency, which is that political minorities win key elections. We’re dangerously naive if we think we can’t end up with an authoritarian regime here. People assume that authoritarians are masterminds, cunning geniuses who fool people into voting for them because the trains run on time. In fact, the reality is that more often than not, they’re grossly incompetent. They make disastrous decision after disastrous decision. They load their government with ministers and bureaucrats who are loyal but utterly incompetent. Look at how Putin has fucked Russia. Look at how Chavez and now Maduro have brought Venezuela to near collapse. Look at Erdogan’s Turkey. They’ve destroyed their countries. The educated classes in their countries are well aware of this, which is why autocrats go after college professors, school teachers, organizers of labor, and competent bureaucrats - either jailing them or chasing them out of the country. But in all cases, there’s just enough support, just enough people who buy into their ethnic nationalism or class warfare just enough for them to get away with rigging the vote in what are obviously sham elections. The world’s most powerful autocrats and party leaders are often terribly incompetent, but the skill they possess is an understanding of how to manipulate people and how to gain and use power against their enemies. My point is, if you think Trump’s sheer idiocy is going to be his downfall, I would not bet on that. Not when he has 30-40% of this country enthusiastically supporting him. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millennials-and-democracy/819866/31 "2018-08-20T23:24:12Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Well, it seems to me that the biggest problem we face is that everyone seems to think that we live in democracy. > > IIRC from my High School Civics class, we live in a democratic republic, which functions fundamentally differently from a democracy. > > Maybe that’s the disconnect certain people have when trying to figure out why their version of reality doesn’t necessarily match up with actual reality. It’s true that we live in a democratic republic, but it’s implicit in this day and age that the emphasis is on democratic, not just republic. The trend over much of the 20th Century was in expanding the popular vote, not restricting it. Most people alive today assume that they live in a society that is free and one in which they have the opportunity to use their freedom to achieve socioeconomic mobility. High school civics teachers can say whatever they want, but when a significant number of people in this country begin to doubt that true democracy exists and when they doubt that there is fundamental fairness in society, then that’s a powder keg waiting for a match light. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2018, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millennials-and-democracy/819866/32 "2018-08-20T23:38:38Z")
The real problem is money in politics. I remember a congressman complaining that the main thing he does is raise money for his reelection. He had to raise $30,000 a week, every week of his term. And if he takes a week vacation, he has to raise $60,000 the following week. And where does that money come from? Lobbyists, wealthy donors, you can spell it out. The result is that the money men call the tune. It is inevitable, so long as you allow money into politics. And even aside from the actual donors, there are all the advocacy groups who pretend to support causes, not candidates, but in most cases that is a fiction. Is it any wonder that ordinary people feel left out? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millennials-and-democracy/819866/33 "2018-08-21T01:59:24Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > The real problem is money in politics. I remember a congressman complaining that the main thing he does is raise money for his reelection. He had to raise $30,000 a week, every week of his term. And if he takes a week vacation, he has to raise $60,000 the following week. And where does that money come from? Lobbyists, wealthy donors, you can spell it out. The result is that the money men call the tune. It is inevitable, so long as you allow money into politics. And even aside from the actual donors, there are all the advocacy groups who pretend to support causes, not candidates, but in most cases that is a fiction. Is it any wonder that ordinary people feel left out? Money in politics, yes. But then money in politics is used to create an economic system in which there is extreme wealth inequality. When there is wealth inequality in a democracy, democracy is in danger of death. Too many people in this country don’t understand the relationship between economic equality and people power. Countries with extreme wealth & income inequality might be “democracies” but in name only. ---
**Author:** ![Unpronounceable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9de0a6/32.png) [@Unpronounceable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unpronounceable)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millennials-and-democracy/819866/34 "2018-08-21T19:34:58Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > In 2016, “45.2 million Americans cast a vote for a Democratic Senate candidate, while 39.3 million Americans voted for a Republican,” yet the senate remains in republican hands. ([SOURCE](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/11/10/democrats-won-popular-vote-senate-too/93598998/)) Wow…conflating ALL senatorial elections into a single majority complaint? :dubious: I am impressed by that reporter! That level of stupid usually requires the orange one. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millennials-and-democracy/819866/35 "2018-08-21T20:04:31Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It is not difficult to see where this comes from. The US is not a real democracy. > > Two of our last three presidents lost the popular vote but won the presidency (Bush in 2000 and Trump in 2016). > > In 2016, “45.2 million Americans cast a vote for a Democratic Senate candidate, while 39.3 million Americans voted for a Republican,” yet the senate remains in republican hands. ([SOURCE](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/11/10/democrats-won-popular-vote-senate-too/93598998/)) > > So when the conservatives on this message board piously tell you to solve your problems at the ballot box point to the above and let them know the American people have spoken and do not want their brand of politics but the scales have been tipped which does not seem very democratic to Millennials (and me too, a Gen-Xer). Apparently they are confused about basic facts of civics. The United States of America has never been a pure democracy. We have always been a representative democratic republic. It has ALWAYS been possible for a person winning the total national popular vote to fail to win election at the Electoral College, as Samuel Tilden can tell you. He is, to this day, the only candidate to win an outright majority of the popular vote (as opposed merely to more popular votes than the winner). But there is no President Tilden portrait in the White House. That’s the system. Maybe you don’t like it, but don’t walk around thinking it’s sudden and new. Andrew Jackson also won the popular vote in 1824 but lost the Presidency to John Quincy Adams, but at least he got his revenge four years later. Al Gore and Hillary Clinton are the other two members of the club. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millennials-and-democracy/819866/36 "2018-08-21T20:11:30Z")
> [@yo\_han\_go](#): > > Slightly off topic. We really need more millennial power on this geriatric board. Go, fetch some grandchildren and force them to share their opinion here. 🙂 I’m a Millennial, and I assure you that the common sentiment here is not one that would like to see me with more power on this board or sharing my opinion more. > [@Unpronounceable](#): > > Wow…conflating ALL senatorial elections into a single majority complaint? :dubious: > I am impressed by that reporter! That level of stupid usually requires the orange one. It’s been a repeated refrain by some leftists on this board ever since the election. Yes, it’s stupid, but that hasn’t stopped them. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millennials-and-democracy/819866/37 "2018-08-21T23:06:35Z")
> [@Unpronounceable](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > In 2016, “45.2 million Americans cast a vote for a Democratic Senate candidate, while 39.3 million Americans voted for a Republican,” yet the senate remains in republican hands. (SOURCE) > > Wow…conflating ALL senatorial elections into a single majority complaint? :dubious: > I am impressed by that reporter! That level of stupid usually requires the orange one. Wrong. It _is_ true that the GOP Senate win despite Democratic popular-vote advantage is the valid result of the system, and not directly the result of GOP cheating or gerrymandering. It is a happenstance of bad luck rather than the result of explicit GOP mischief. However, it is frustrating for right-minded pro-democracy thinkers to see results like this, especially since similar results in the U.S. House and in state legislatures often _are_ due in part to malicious GOP gerrymandering. True, rigging due to GOP cheating and rigging due to the happenstance of state boundaries are different qualitatively, but the effects happen to operate in tandem, empowering the kleptocrats and false populists in the minority rather than pro-democracy voters in the majority. It is easy to grasp why the reporter (and the SDMB poster commenting on the report) complain about the anti-democratic result _despite_ that they understand that, _in this specific case_, the subversion of the will of the majority may be due to happenstance rather than GOP mischief. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millennials-and-democracy/819866/38 "2018-08-21T23:33:45Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Wrong. It _is_ true that the GOP Senate win despite Democratic popular-vote advantage is the valid result of the system, and not directly the result of GOP cheating or gerrymandering. It is a happenstance of bad luck rather than the result of explicit GOP mischief. > > However, it is frustrating for right-minded pro-democracy thinkers to see results like this, especially since similar results in the U.S. House and in state legislatures often _are_ due in part to malicious GOP gerrymandering. True, rigging due to GOP cheating and rigging due to the happenstance of state boundaries are different qualitatively, but the effects happen to operate in tandem, empowering the kleptocrats and false populists in the minority rather than pro-democracy voters in the majority. It is easy to grasp why the reporter (and the SDMB poster commenting on the report) complain about the anti-democratic result _despite_ that they understand that, _in this specific case_, the subversion of the will of the majority may be due to happenstance rather than GOP mischief. “similar results in the U.S. House”? The total of 2016 votes for the House of Representatives (a MUCH better sample than the Senate races) went for the GOP by ~1.4 million votes. And “the happenstance of state boundaries” is not “rigging” in any meaningful sense of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millennials-and-democracy/819866/39 "2018-08-21T23:48:53Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > “similar results in the U.S. House”? The total of 2016 votes for the House of Representatives (a MUCH better sample than the Senate races) went for the GOP by ~1.4 million votes. > > And “the happenstance of state boundaries” is not “rigging” in any meaningful sense of the word. Nationally, the GOP may win more House votes, but gerrymandering in states like Wisconsin assures the GOP will be over-represented vis-a-vis voters’ wishes. And controlling a disproportionate number of statewide seats lets them draw the maps for house seats as well: “In 2012, Republicans got 48.6 percent of the statewide vote but won 60 seats in the 99-seat Assembly. In 2014, the party got 52 percent of the vote and won 63 Assembly seats. Democrats in 2012 received 51.4 percent of the vote but only won 39 Assembly seats, later winning just 36 seats when they received 48 percent of the vote in 2014.” > **[Federal judges panel finds state redistricting plan an 'unconstitutional...](https://madison.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/federal-judges-panel-finds-state-redistricting-plan-an-unconstitutional-gerrymander/article_c7a71b38-b98c-5b9f-aef5-908cc72ee068.html)** > > A panel of federal judges on Monday ruled that Wisconsin's 2011 legislative redistricting plan, created by Republican leaders virtually in secret, is an unconstitutional partisan gerrymander. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millennials-and-democracy/819866/40 "2018-08-22T00:19:37Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > “similar results in the U.S. House”? The total of 2016 votes for the House of Representatives (a MUCH better sample than the Senate races) went for the GOP by ~1.4 million votes. How are you with numbers, **Mr. Hurricane**? Pay close attention. To avoid complaints of cherry-picking, I include all seven of the most recent general elections. 2004 Red Seats won 232 202 Popular vote 55,958,144 52,969,786 Percentage 49.4% 46.8% 2006 Blue Seats won 233 202 Popular vote 42,338,795 35,857,334 Percentage 52.3% 44.3% Start by comparing 2004 and 2006. The Blues had almost exactly the same final seat count in 2006 as the Reds had in 2004. But to get there they needed to win the popular vote by 8% compared with just 2.6% for the Reds in 2004. ¿Comprende? 2008 Blue Seats won 257 178 Popular vote 65,237,840 52,249,491 Percentage 53.2% 42.6% 2010 Red Seats won 242 193 Popular vote 44,827,441 38,980,192 Percentage 51.7% 44.9% Blues win by over 10% in 2006 and are rewarded. Reds win by less than 7% in 2010 but get several more seats than Blue got with their 8% 2006 win. 2012 Red Seats won 234 201 Popular vote 58,228,253 59,645,531 Percentage 47.6% 48.8% **_The Blues won the 2012 popular vote by 1.2% but Red gets a strong advantage by number of seats._ Capiche?** 2014 Red Seats won 247 188 Popular vote 40,081,282 35,624,357 Percentage 51.2% 45.5% 2016 Red Seats won 241 194 Popular vote 63,173,815 61,776,554 Percentage 49.1% 48.0% _In 2016, Reds eke out a tiny 1.1% win but get **hugely** more seats._ IOW, the House is “rigged” in favor of the GOP. Some of this advantage, like the entire Senate advantage, can be attributed to happenstance rather than deliberate gerrymandering. _ **But it puts to rest your incorrect conclusion.** _ This is your cue to say “Thank you, **septimus**. I learned something new.” _But I won’t hold my breath._🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millennials-and-democracy/819866.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millennials-and-democracy/819866.md?page=3)