# Millions rally against war: is that reason enough to delay or stand down? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2003, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millions-rally-against-war-is-that-reason-enough-to-delay-or-stand-down/155416 "2003-02-16T07:40:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millions-rally-against-war-is-that-reason-enough-to-delay-or-stand-down/155416/61 "2003-02-17T13:10:53Z")
P.S., I’m not claiming that that constitutes proof of the correctness of the protesters’ position, simply that no other issue has ever, ever commanded that degree of public oppostion. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millions-rally-against-war-is-that-reason-enough-to-delay-or-stand-down/155416/62 "2003-02-17T13:20:38Z")
Apparently, in the early 70’s - when Australia was still involved in Vietnam as part of her defence treaty with the USA - there were some truly impressive numbers of people who marched in protest about further involvement. I’m pretty sure I recall a figure of 600,000 people on the streets of Melbourne in 1973. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millions-rally-against-war-is-that-reason-enough-to-delay-or-stand-down/155416/63 "2003-02-17T13:31:02Z")
[australians in vietnam](http://www.awm.gov.au/events/travelling/impressions/Chronology.pdf) > [@](#): > > **1970** > > _8 May_ First moratorium demonstration: 120,000 march in Australian cities to call for an end to Australian involvement in the war. > _18 Sep_ Second moratorium: 100,000 march in Australian cities; over 300 people arrested. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millions-rally-against-war-is-that-reason-enough-to-delay-or-stand-down/155416/64 "2003-02-17T13:31:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tagos \* > \*\*No - they estimated 750,000 and that ignored those who did not march from the 2 assembly points but went to Hyde Park direct. and the UK police habitually underestimate demo’s. As the Mayor of London said on a TV interview, by mid afternoon while the march was hours from completion, they told him 750000 to 1 million, and as he remarked, you then have to multiply it by 2 to get to the correct figure. \*\* It is a phenomenon common to ALL mass demonstrations that the organizers of the event estimate several times more what the police estimate. The police figure is invariably closer to the truth, which is what you’d expect. The police don’t have any particular reason to deflate the figure, but the organizers of the protest will naturally tend to inflate it. This should not be taken as a shot against the size of the protest; even 750,000 people is a remarkable and impressive figure. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millions-rally-against-war-is-that-reason-enough-to-delay-or-stand-down/155416/65 "2003-02-17T13:35:14Z")
Crap. Hit “submit” instead of “preview”. Anyway, those were the biggest demonstrations. It was all over for Australia on 11 January 1973. The “600,000” number you remember may be related to a protest in Washington in 1971. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millions-rally-against-war-is-that-reason-enough-to-delay-or-stand-down/155416/66 "2003-02-17T13:41:52Z")
Oh, I stand corrected! You know what made me quote the 600,000 number **desmo**? Remember the “Living in the 70’s” album by Skyhooks? One of the songs on that album featured sound bites from one of those “moratorium” marches in Melbourne. I can recall as youngster that it was quite a “biting song” because it was called “Whatever happened to the Revolution?”. That was where I got the 600,000 number from. I’m really quite sure that that’s what the album claimed as part of it’s liner notes. Ahhh… the dim mists of youthful memory. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millions-rally-against-war-is-that-reason-enough-to-delay-or-stand-down/155416/67 "2003-02-17T13:47:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SentientMeat \* > \*\*[Here](http://www.guardian.co.uk/antiwar/story/0,12809,897098,00.html) is an estimate of march numbers elsewhere than the UK. > > Nowhere except Spain comes close to Britain in terms of a percentage of the population. Even if the 0.75M is correct and is not an underestimate, this is still the biggest protest _ever_ in the UK. > > \ > > I would suggest a valid comparison would be for a worldwide “Start The War” march to be held in a fortnight’s time and see how many _it_ turns out. \*\* Quite. I’m sure the Daily Mail is already mocking up it’s Bombs Not Babies banners ready for the hundreds of thousands who will flock the streets. An estimate of 1 million is likely to be too low but it still represents an absolutely unprecedented event in UK history. When that many people from all walks of life, from Gulf War vets and ww2 paratroopers, proud in their red berets, to old ladies in wheelchairs and football supporters clubs make their way to the capital of the UK, to march in sub-zero temperatures to tell their government that they disagree with a war then, be they right or wrong, that government has to listen. It must be difficult to appreciate if you are not British, but we don’t do this sort of thing usually. That it happened is a clear reflection of the firm feeling that the case for war is weak, alternatives have not been explored, that we have been subject to blatant propaganda and lies in an effort to manipulate us and that the doctrine of unilateral action outside of a genuine (and the British public is not going to be fooled by a US arm twisted, threatened and bribed consensus anymore) international consensus is plain wrong. We the people are pissed off with the lies, pissed off with the spin, pissed off with the shifting rationales, pissed off with the contempt the govt has for the democratic process. Now roused, the ordinary person is mad and we are not going to take it anymore. There is a mood in this country I have never felt and it makes me damn proud to be British, damn proud to see Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, athiests, young and old standing up and saying No! If Blair does not listen then he is finished politically. My feeling is he will not listen, I hope he has the grace to resign immediately after victory. I have voted Labour all my life and I will not do so again for as long as I live if he does not and I am not alone in this you can be sure. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millions-rally-against-war-is-that-reason-enough-to-delay-or-stand-down/155416/68 "2003-02-17T14:02:00Z")
In the end, I attended the march in Houston, though more as an observer/photog than banner-waving participant. My observation of the Houston rally and march was that it was on-message: most signs and banners referenced the risks of invasion to Iraqi civilians, the questionable morality of pre-emptive actions in general, and the popular belief (which I don’t fully buy into) that “it’s all about oil”. So what if there was plenty of Bush (and Cheney and Rumsfeld and Rice)-bashing? The buck stops in the Oval Office on this one. Whether or not to participate in events such as those of Saturday last can be a difficult decision. Marching is the street with crowds of others is, after all, a rather coarse form of action, and obviously many of those marching had wildly different agendas. While I don’t identify with every single leftist cause, in this case I felt it vitally important to indicate to our semi-elected leaders that many of us feel a certain degree of dissatisfaction with their justifications for the upcoming invasion. Finally, with war seeming inevitable within the next thirty days, waiting for an election that is years away to express this displeasure is simply not an option. . ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millions-rally-against-war-is-that-reason-enough-to-delay-or-stand-down/155416/69 "2003-02-17T14:02:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SentientMeat \* > \*\*[… worldwide “Start The War” march to be held in a fortnight’s time and see how many _it_ turns out. \*\* Other then the fact that those who support the war effort probably find protests to be silly, that’s a great idea. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millions-rally-against-war-is-that-reason-enough-to-delay-or-stand-down/155416/70 "2003-02-17T14:09:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\*Other then [sic] the fact that those who support the war effort probably find protests to be silly, that’s a great idea. :rolleyes: \*\* Why? There have been right-wing protests before, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millions-rally-against-war-is-that-reason-enough-to-delay-or-stand-down/155416/71 "2003-02-17T14:19:18Z")
I dunno. I couldn’t name one of my friends, all varying shades of ‘right-wing’, who would go to a ‘protest’, regardless of the cause. Vote at _every_ election, give money to your chosen candidates and causes, and volunteer time for the same. These are effective means of working towards a given political goal. Marches and protests seem to be a waste of time when dealing with ‘big issues’. Local issues, _maybe_. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millions-rally-against-war-is-that-reason-enough-to-delay-or-stand-down/155416/72 "2003-02-17T14:21:15Z")
OK, howbout a referendum? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millions-rally-against-war-is-that-reason-enough-to-delay-or-stand-down/155416/73 "2003-02-17T14:21:23Z")
I guess there’s no need for supporters of the war to demonstrate in support, all they have to do is go with the flow. If you agree, there’s no need to demonstrate, if you disagree, then there is a need. And people that couldn’t give a fuck get counted in as supporters anyway, because they didn’t protest. At least according to what **Libertarian** seems to me to be saying. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millions-rally-against-war-is-that-reason-enough-to-delay-or-stand-down/155416/74 "2003-02-17T14:23:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SentientMeat \* > \*\*OK, howbout a referendum? \*\* Deal. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millions-rally-against-war-is-that-reason-enough-to-delay-or-stand-down/155416/75 "2003-02-17T14:26:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\* Vote at _every_ election, give money to your chosen candidates and causes, and volunteer time for the same. These are effective means of working towards a given political goal. Marches and protests seem to be a waste of time when dealing with ‘big issues’. Local issues, _maybe_. \*\* What kind of fatalistic or idealistic nonsense is this? You vote at an election. The party you voted for may or may not win power. Why do you think that that should either: 1. silence you because your party won, and whatever they do must be right, or 2. silence you because your party lost and there’s nothing you can do about it? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millions-rally-against-war-is-that-reason-enough-to-delay-or-stand-down/155416/76 "2003-02-17T14:28:21Z")
I wish our Glorious Leader were as reasonable as you, **Brutus**. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millions-rally-against-war-is-that-reason-enough-to-delay-or-stand-down/155416/77 "2003-02-17T14:30:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Why? There have been right-wing protests before, you know. As a matter of fact, in Houston, there was a group of pro-war counter-demonstrators, about ten strong (against maybe 5K anti-war marchers), waving American flags, displaying a banner that showed a Texas hunting licence altered to say “terrorist hunting permit”, and loudly calling the marchers “traitors”. One of the counter-demonstrators was carrying a sign that said “What is **our** oil doing under **their** sand?” Bunch’a wannabe fascists, near as I could see. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millions-rally-against-war-is-that-reason-enough-to-delay-or-stand-down/155416/78 "2003-02-17T14:32:50Z")
Let me be clear here: You have every right to print up funny signs and go marching around, permits permitting. That goes without saying, and is part of what makes western democracies great. But I don’t think they are effective at much. Certainly not in directing foreign policy. That being said, they may be fun. If it was warmer, I’d love to go to one, just to see with my own eyes the collection of, uh, ‘intersting’ people. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millions-rally-against-war-is-that-reason-enough-to-delay-or-stand-down/155416/79 "2003-02-17T14:41:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*Why? There have been right-wing protests before, you know. \*\* Is it the case in general that the left-wing opposes war and the right-wing supports war? As I recall, the left-wing supported Clinton’s wars and the right-wing opposed them. ---
**Author:** ![Mandelstam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2003, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millions-rally-against-war-is-that-reason-enough-to-delay-or-stand-down/155416/80 "2003-02-17T14:43:33Z")
\*\*Brutus \*\*: _:“I dunno. I couldn’t name one of my friends, all varying shades of ‘right-wing’, who would go to a ‘protest’, regardless of the cause.”_ Well I don’t profess to know who your friends are **Brutus** , but have you ever heard of or seen the picketing of clinics? IIR my history C, during the Viet Nam era there was a quite famous protest in New York City in favor of the war. People take to organized public protest when they think their message is not getting out through the official channels. That’s why more people protested in places like Britain, Spain and Italy where the government is in strong conflict with majority opinion. I don’t argue, mind you, that b/c millions rally against war “that [is] reason enough to delay or stand down.” It’s not that straightforward. (What **tom** said on this point.) But the protests are a sign; they’re a message that governments should pay attention to. As far as democratic governance goes, the polls are another important sign. Which is why I find it very amusing that a not a single pro-war poster is willing to comment on the fact–which I’ve asserted several times–that the majority of people in the US do not favor war without allied and UN support, and that’s even more true in the UK. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millions-rally-against-war-is-that-reason-enough-to-delay-or-stand-down/155416.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millions-rally-against-war-is-that-reason-enough-to-delay-or-stand-down/155416.md?page=5)