# Millwood to the Phillies?!?!?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 20, 2002, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millwood-to-the-phillies/144097 "2002-12-20T20:19:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millwood-to-the-phillies/144097/1 "2002-12-20T20:19:44Z")
[What the hell are the Braves thinking?](http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/1220/1480130.html) Millwood for Johnny Estrada? Estrada better become Johnny _Bench_ for God’s sake. ---
**Author:** ![White\_Lightning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@White\_Lightning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/White_Lightning)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millwood-to-the-phillies/144097/2 "2002-12-20T22:00:51Z")
When I read that this morning, I felt like the Ortiz thing finally made sense. Getting Ortiz from the Giants and then signing Byrd made it look like they were planning on letting Maddux go (too many guys in the rotation), but the only logical reason to give up Moss for Ortiz was to go for veteran reliability in 2003, and letting Maddux go would be insane if that’s the goal. But there was no “buzz” about any of their other starters. But with Milwood gone, it makes more sense. Maddux, Ortiz, Hampton, Byrd, Marquis. Solid. Milwood as the odd man out of their previous group of 6 makes a _lot_ of sense to me. As far as Johnny Estrada… Maybe their scouts know something we don’t. It’s not like they could do any worse than Javy Lopez. Or maybe it’s just a payroll move. What I don’t get is why they don’t go after Pudge. Rumor mill says he wants 7 figures yearly. I’m sure Atlanta could give him a 4-5 year contract averaging that much with a cheap buyout for 2005 or later, if what they’re concerned with is immediate success. They’re going to have to start rebuilding around that time anyway, as Maddux and Smoltz aren’t going to last forever, and I don’t get the feeling that Ortiz is going to work as a long-term solution for them. I _know_ Hampton isn’t. Also, I don’t think Milwood is that great. He’s getting pretty old, and his 2001 resurgence notwithstanding, has had a rough couple of years. The change of scenery might do him good, or it might prove the _Atlanta Effect_. Pitchers just pitch well there. For that reason I predict Mike Hampton will have a good year, or at least a better year than last year, although that shouldn’t be hard. Put _me_ on the mound in Atlanta and I might be able to put up better numbers than Hampton’s last year. Frankly, I think the greater mystery is why they’ve been focusing so exclusively on improving their pitching. I’m not aware of the business aspects of Hampton, Ortiz, Byrd vs Glavine, Moss, Milwood, but wouldn’t they have been better served to spend that time and those resources in improving their dismal lineup instead of their stellar rotation? Or the bullpen that’s been pillaged by the rest of the league this offseason? But I guess that’s why I’m just a fan instead of a GM. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millwood-to-the-phillies/144097/3 "2002-12-21T02:07:19Z")
Yeah, the Braves appear to have jumped the shark this offseason. With AOL-Time Warner stock tanking they’re on pretty strict budget nowadays. 5 years for Pudge? Lightning, you’re nuts. He’s already at the dangerous ‘Games Caught’ mark. The trend is bad. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millwood-to-the-phillies/144097/4 "2002-12-21T14:42:56Z")
Don’t worry about the Phils topping your Braves even with Millwood, Thome, etc. **Jonathan**. Considering the Phils’ recent “success” with trades (remember how Jeremy Giambi was going to push the Phils into the pennant race?), Millwood’s arm will turn to Swiss cheese, Thome will suffer an unexplained cheesesteak injury, and the Braves will win the NL East for the 245,377th year in a row. ---
**Author:** ![Mullinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@Mullinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mullinator)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millwood-to-the-phillies/144097/5 "2002-12-21T17:16:10Z")
The Braves did it because the screwed up. They didn’t have to offer Maddux arbitration. When he didn’t find a deal to his liking and accepted arbitration, the Braves didn’t have a great plan in place and it sure seems like they fumbled this one. Trading him for a marginal player is one thing, but doing so within the division to a rival who has a weakness in pitching is inexcusable. Unless they use this trade as a salary dump to find room for a hitter to bolster one of their 4 weak positions (1B, 2B, 3B, Catcher) the Braves royally screwed up. Keep this in mind, they could have had Millwood and Glavine for essentially the same money that they now have Maddux. Keep those 2 pitchers and you can save the money spent on Paul Byrd and they could have gone out and signed a McGriff to bolster a weak position. Nice. Glad to be a Cubs fan listening to the Braves fans finally start to realize that John Schuerholz isn’t the great tactician people thought he was. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millwood-to-the-phillies/144097/6 "2002-12-21T17:29:56Z")
That what Rob Neyer thinks, too. [http://msn.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/neyer\_rob/1480284.html](http://msn.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/neyer_rob/1480284.html) ---
**Author:** ![mouthbreather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a698b9/32.png) [@mouthbreather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mouthbreather)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millwood-to-the-phillies/144097/7 "2002-12-21T19:11:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by White Lightning \* > \*\*Or maybe it’s just a payroll move. \*\* Bingo. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millwood-to-the-phillies/144097/8 "2002-12-21T19:29:30Z")
Oh, I agree that it’s clearly a payroll move. But for God’s sake…the Cubs probably have 10 minor league players who have a higher upside than Johnny Estrada. There are probably a dang hundred minor league players with higher upside than Johnny Estrada. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millwood-to-the-phillies/144097/9 "2002-12-21T21:48:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duke \* > \*\*Don’t worry about the Phils topping your Braves even with Millwood, Thome, etc. **Jonathan**. Considering the Phils’ recent “success” with trades (remember how Jeremy Giambi was going to push the Phils into the pennant race)… \*\* I don’t remember anyone touting that as anything other than a “nice” acquisition. Certainly not as newsworthy as Millwood. The Fightin’ Phils will win the East. Remember you heard it here first.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millwood-to-the-phillies/144097/10 "2002-12-22T02:41:01Z")
Aging Millwood? Whatchoo talkin’ 'bout, Willis? [He’s 28 this Tuesday](http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5848). First thought I got when I saw that, in addition to losing Glavine to the Mets, the Braves were trading Millwood to the Phillies: “Schuerholz is nuts, and the Braves are going to be in some serious shit.” ESPN doesn’t seem to disagree with that sentiment. I just don’t understand the moves the Braves have made, and have failed to make, this past week or so. Maddux is a very solid regular season pitcher, but he gets clobbered in the post-season. _clobbered_. [ESPN.com](http://ESPN.com) doesn’t seem to have his post-season career stats, but I remember him being tied with someone for most playoff losses … in the teens. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millwood-to-the-phillies/144097/11 "2002-12-22T12:14:52Z")
Maddux has 13 post season losses. But that’s a pretty nonsensical state. For God’s sake…he’s had 30 post-season appearances. How many other pitchers can claim that? That’s like saying that Yogi Berra has the most post-season strikeouts…it’s a non-starter. Maddux ERA in the post-season is 3.23 and he’s given up less than one hit per inning. ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millwood-to-the-phillies/144097/12 "2002-12-22T19:33:52Z")
I’m not so sure Maddux is that valuable anymore, given that he seems to run out of gas after five innings these days. ---
**Author:** ![White\_Lightning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@White\_Lightning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/White_Lightning)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millwood-to-the-phillies/144097/13 "2002-12-23T00:12:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by \*\*Jonathan Chance \*\*\* > 5 years for Pudge? Lightning, you’re nuts. He’s already at the dangerous ‘Games Caught’ mark. The trend is bad. He’ll never last that long. But you think he’d take a 2-year deal? He’s already talking about going to Japan. All I’m saying is, throw some money at him to give him some security. Atlanta _needs_ a catcher, one of the best catchers over the last few years is available, and the market is more depressed than I can remember it ever being in the modern era. And they seemingly haven’t even talked to him. It just seems wrong. **iampunha** , you caught me. My mistake. The Braves’ll still take the division, though. ---
**Author:** ![Mullinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@Mullinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mullinator)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millwood-to-the-phillies/144097/14 "2002-12-23T13:03:10Z")
> [@](#): > > The Braves’ll still take the division, though. Oh, I don’t know. Where do their strengths lay? The bullpen is a shell of last year’s version, which was a major team strength. Granted, Smoltz is a stud, but the middle relief is a complete turnover. To think they will strike gold twice in a row with a new group of basically untested relievers is a bet I would not take. The starters all look good on paper. But, Hampton has major things to prove, Maddux is no longer an inning eater, Paul Byrd did well for a team that was out of it (and he is aging), Ortiz may have been a #1 starter on a World Series team, but he was not exactly a huge numbers guy and the Braves gave up a live young arm to get him. Hitting? Well, the combo of Jones, Jones, and Sheffield is quite impressive. But, what will they get out of the 4 infield slots and catcher? Last year, none of those positions performed up to acceptable major league levels for a contender and so far none have been upgraded. Give a slot to Derosa, continue to play Furcal for his speed (which would be a good weapon with a decent OBP) and try to unearth something at first other than an over the hill singles hitter. The Braves have a ton of question marks, far more than the Phillies at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millwood-to-the-phillies/144097/15 "2002-12-23T13:26:32Z")
Without shooting Castilla I don’t know what they do. I’d go with this starting lineup: C: ??? 1B: ??? 2B: Giles SS: Furcal 3B: DeRosa LF: C Jones CF: A Jones RF: Sheffield The problem is they can’t spend ANY money at all and their C and 1B slots are dead in the water. It’s waiver wire time for the Braves. Maybe something will come free. ---
**Author:** ![Fatwater\_Fewl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4491bb/32.png) [@Fatwater\_Fewl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fatwater_Fewl)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millwood-to-the-phillies/144097/16 "2002-12-23T14:58:33Z")
How about this lineup? C Lopez/Estrada 1B C. Jones 2B Giles 3B DeRosa LF Betemit RF Sheffield CF A. Jones Or switch Betemit and DeRosa. Neither would be worse that Castilla at 3B, I’m sure. In any case, it looks to me that the Braves conceded the division with the Millwood trade. ---
**Author:** ![White\_Lightning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@White\_Lightning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/White_Lightning)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millwood-to-the-phillies/144097/17 "2002-12-23T15:54:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by \*\*Mullinator \*\*\* > Oh, I don’t know. Where do their strengths lay? They’re gonna be have to be bad for years before any of the teams in the NL East are going to be able to challenge for the division title. They’re just the Braves. And the rest are just the Phillies, Mets, Expos, and Marlins. That’s just the way the world works. Trust me on this. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millwood-to-the-phillies/144097/18 "2002-12-23T16:30:40Z")
Do I have to mock you, WL? ---
**Author:** ![White\_Lightning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@White\_Lightning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/White_Lightning)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millwood-to-the-phillies/144097/19 "2002-12-23T20:05:32Z")
I don’t know how you could mock somebody for being right an extraordinarily high percentage of the time, **JC** , but you’re free to try. 😃 I’m telling you. Right now, when it comes to winning the East, actual roster quality is irrelevant. The Braves will win it for at least another 2-3 years regardless. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millwood-to-the-phillies/144097/20 "2002-12-24T01:31:53Z")
Waiter! I’ll have whatever he’s having! Make it a double. Lightnin’, you are so sadly demented. The Braves might not even finish in **second** this year. Both the Mets and the Phillies have made real gains this off season. The Braves haven’t. At all. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/millwood-to-the-phillies/144097.md?page=2)