# Mind-Controlling Super Villains: Kilgrave, The Mule, Max Lord and Others **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 21, 2016, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808 "2016-04-21T12:39:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/1 "2016-04-21T12:39:58Z")
By coincidence, I was reading “Foundation and Empire” and shortly after getting into it, I started binge-watching “Jessica Jones.” I say “by coincidence” because I had no idea that the Mule from the Foundation and Jessica Jones’ Kilgrave were pretty much the same villain. The air of paranoia as the non-mind-control enabled super villains try to deal with the mind controllers in both works is very similar. There’s a constant sense of the protagonists trying to avoid walking into invisible spider webs and a sense that any mistake will result in getting mind controlled, which is one of the very few fates which can ACTUALLY be worse than death, as Jessica Jones makes abundantly clear. Dealing with either villain is extremely dangerous not just to the lives, but the sanity, of the protagonists. The extant of the Mule and Kilgrave’s powers vary greatly, as do their personalities. When the Mule messes with your mind, it stays messed with. Kilgrave’s effects go away eventually. Both have weaknesses in their powers, which means they can be fought and defeated, though it’s extremely difficult. Well the difficulty level for Jessica Jones may be exaggerated since she has repeated plot-driven instances of being dumb as a box of rocks. And there are considerable differences in their personalities. The Mule is much saner than Kilgrave: the Mule has no particular interest or need in tormenting others, whereas Kilgrave takes delight in tormenting his mind slaves (who are aware of what they are doing even as they are forced to do it). But the Mule is ambitious and galactic in scope which makes him much more of a death dealer. The Mule wants to (and does) conquer the entire galaxy, which entails quite a few deaths. In fact, in Second Foundation he bombs a populous and advanced planet that is the capital of a small interstellar empire into the stone age because he thinks his enemies may reside there. So he’s not a nice guy, by any means. The mind control that these villains exert offers quite a few chances to explore topics relating to free will and psychology and consensuality which the writers of Jessica Jones exploit quite adroitly at times. Asimov doesn’t do so much with that, but that is because he is pursuing bigger themes: the notion that the failures of government and the resulting unnecessary human misery they cause are psychological in nature, not some vague product of “human nature” but manipulable aspects of the human psyche that might be controlled to the benefit of all humankind by a more advanced society. I also found some resonance with these themes in some current news: the discovery that the influenza virus might influence those who have it to go out and mingle in large crowds – and stories about toxoplasmosis, a condition in which brain parasites transmitted by cats which get inside mice and make them reckless and attracted to the smell of cat urine, which also can get inside human brains and make us reckless too, which may be linked to road rage incidents. No word about the smell of cat urine, but I’ve smelled cat urine, and … either I don’t have toxoplasmosis, or it does not cause humans to be attracted. Yo, Kilgrave and the Mule’s real life analogues are viruses and amoeba-like parasites ya’ll, and THEY ARE INSIDE THE HOUSE! There are also interesting analogs here to the villain of the ultimate mind control horror story, “I have no mouth and I must scream,” Max Lord from DC Comics, and the Blight from Vinge’s “A Fire Upon the Deep.” But why have all the fun to myself. Have at, boys and girls! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/2 "2016-04-21T14:03:59Z")
[“It’s free to do whatever it wants. I’ve merely told it what that is.”](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175011) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/3 "2016-04-21T14:05:55Z")
The interesting wrinkle in WILD CARDS was that the bad guy – well, didn’t so much have mind _control_, but mind _amplification_: if you’re calm, his power can’t make you angry; but if you’re a bit upset, he can make you furious. So he can’t get you into bed unless you’re a little attracted to him – at which point you’re a _lot_ attracted to him. So becoming a Senator was as easy as getting people to commit crimes – never, like, _unthinkable_ crimes, but ones you’d have genuinely been tempted to commit, but maybe would’ve talked yourself out of, but I guess we’ll never know, which is disturbing in a way that straight-up mind-control _isn’t_: it’s one thing if you had no choice, or if you weren’t strong enough to resist the command he felt like giving; it’s another to know that you in fact are a little bit racist, and are maybe one bad day and a couple of beers away from committing a hate crime, or whatever; he can only work with what he’s got. Anyhow, then he ran for President… ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Draper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Don\_Draper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Draper)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/4 "2016-04-21T15:05:44Z")
The 80s comic book series “The New Mutants” had an interesting twist on the usual “mind controlling” character – a mind-controlling _heroine_ Xi’an “Shan” Coy Manh, a.k.a. Karma. Xi’an was a Vietnamese refugee with a very strong, moral code and sense of right and wrong. She despised the very nature of her unique ability (bending unwilling people to her will and controlling their actions) and hated to use it. She didn’t even want to be part of a superhero team (even a trainee team), but preferred to lead a normal, ordinary life. Yet circumstances - including an uncle who was a powerful crime boss - kept forcing her into situations where she had to use her powers. She often felt as manipulated by circumstance as her own ‘victims.’ I thought that was an interesting dynamic for a reluctant hero - someone who had fantastic abilities but was morally repelled by the nature of it. But apparently writer Chris Claremont couldn’t figure out what to do with her, as she was the first character written out of the series. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/5 "2016-04-21T15:53:55Z")
Hive, currently on Agents of SHIELD, controls Inhumans via some sort of infection on the brain. It doesn’t look like he can control normal humans. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/6 "2016-04-21T15:55:56Z")
“These are not the droids you’re looking for.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/7 "2016-04-21T16:14:14Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Hive, currently on Agents of SHIELD, controls Inhumans via some sort of infection on the brain. It doesn’t look like he can control normal humans. But it was Loki’s schtick in THE AVENGERS, right? Tap a guy in the chest and suddenly Jeremy Renner is telling you stuff and playing marksman so Stellan Skarsgård can build a portal to who-knows-where so your army can show up to do who-knows-what? And maybe get our heroes – including the Don’t Make Me Angry guy – arguing with each other, only maybe that just comes naturally? But maybe it’s the illusionist’s gear? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/8 "2016-04-21T17:25:49Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > But it was Loki’s schtick in THE AVENGERS, right? Tap a guy in the chest and suddenly Jeremy Renner is telling you stuff and playing marksman so Stellan Skarsgård can build a portal to who-knows-where so your army can show up to do who-knows-what? The mind control was a power of Loki’s Staff, powered by the tesseract. Although Loki has similar but less powerful magic of his own. Lorelei was used in one episode of Agents of SHIELD - she has the power to control men, but not women. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2016, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/9 "2016-04-23T00:45:41Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > The mind control was a power of Loki’s Staff, powered by the tesseract. Although Loki has similar but less powerful magic of his own. > > Lorelei was used in one episode of Agents of SHIELD - she has the power to control men, but not women. Not that they’re likely to address it (or bring her back again at all, but would it work on gay men? Lesbians? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2016, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/10 "2016-04-23T01:03:38Z")
No mention of The Master yet? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2016, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/11 "2016-04-23T05:12:41Z")
> [@Johnny\_Q](#): > > No mention of The Master yet? Let’s keep Cecil Adams out of it! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2016, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/12 "2016-04-23T05:13:57Z")
Sorry didn’t intend to do a drive-by posting, but we all know why I haven’t been on, and it’s too late and I’m too sleepy to post now, but will get back to you. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2016, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/13 "2016-04-23T16:24:47Z")
Another example of a character who could mind-control men but not women was Hathor on **Stargate SG-1**. The Taurean women in the **Star Trek: The Animated Series** had a similar ability which only affected men. Lt. Uhura takes command! ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2016, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/14 "2016-04-23T18:24:33Z")
I don’t recall - did the Mule actually have mind control, or was he an emotion controller, or maybe amplifier? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2016, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/15 "2016-04-24T20:53:03Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > The interesting wrinkle in WILD CARDS was that the bad guy – well, didn’t so much have mind _control_, but mind _amplification_: if you’re calm, his power can’t make you angry; but if you’re a bit upset, he can make you furious. So he can’t get you into bed unless you’re a little attracted to him – at which point you’re a _lot_ attracted to him. > > So becoming a Senator was as easy as getting people to commit crimes – never, like, _unthinkable_ crimes, but ones you’d have genuinely been tempted to commit, but maybe would’ve talked yourself out of, but I guess we’ll never know, which is disturbing in a way that straight-up mind-control _isn’t_: it’s one thing if you had no choice, or if you weren’t strong enough to resist the command he felt like giving; it’s another to know that you in fact are a little bit racist, and are maybe one bad day and a couple of beers away from committing a hate crime, or whatever; he can only work with what he’s got. > > Anyhow, then he ran for President… That’s an interesting wrinkle on the mind control theme. One of the issues in any story with a mind-controlling super villain is how do you limit his power to keep him from being an Out of Context problem for everyone he encounters (i.e., unbeatable). This sounds like a good solution: he has the ability to make people do things, but only if they have some element that wants to. Offers all kinds of options for interesting characterization. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2016, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/16 "2016-04-24T20:54:41Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > “These are not the droids you’re looking for.” The Jedi mind control powers strike me as a tacked-on aftereffect, and extremely weak sauce besides. I don’t think they did much with it in the movies, other than use it to smooth out a few plot wrinkles. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2016, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/17 "2016-04-24T20:57:45Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > But it was Loki’s schtick in THE AVENGERS, right? Tap a guy in the chest and suddenly Jeremy Renner is telling you stuff and playing marksman so Stellan Skarsgård can build a portal to who-knows-where so your army can show up to do who-knows-what? And maybe get our heroes – including the Don’t Make Me Angry guy – arguing with each other, only maybe that just comes naturally? But maybe it’s the illusionist’s gear? Could be based on the Norse mythology Loki, who was a trickster, which would probably include getting people to do things they don’t want to do, and/or against their better judgement. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2016, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/18 "2016-04-24T21:01:19Z")
I made this thread kinda hoping that someone would amplify on and compare Max Lord with Kilgrave and/or the Mule. As I understand it, Lord was so powerful that Wonder Woman actually murdered him to prevent him from continuing his crimes, as there was no other way to stop him, leading Batman and Superman to clutch their pearls. I was wondering how he compared to Kilgrave and the Mule. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2016, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/19 "2016-04-24T21:01:41Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I don’t recall - did the Mule actually have mind control, or was he an emotion controller, or maybe amplifier? A little bit of both - he could easily affect emotions of one person at a time, but with effort he could affect the emotions of masses of people and do the other mind-control tricks, like erasing memory, etc. Naturally, he preferred the path of least effort. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2016, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/20 "2016-04-24T23:51:31Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > That’s an interesting wrinkle on the mind control theme. One of the issues in any story with a mind-controlling super villain is how do you limit his power to keep him from being an Out of Context problem for everyone he encounters (i.e., unbeatable). This sounds like a good solution: he has the ability to make people do things, but only if they have some element that wants to. Offers all kinds of options for interesting characterization. Piers Anthony built a storyline around a villain who could make people believe that _he_ believed what he was saying. So he needs to stick to plausible claims while presenting himself as reasonable and rational – but _within those limits,_ he’s an insanely effective con artist thanks to his persuasion-of-sincerity power. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808.md?page=2)