# Mind-Controlling Super Villains: Kilgrave, The Mule, Max Lord and Others **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 21, 2016, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808 "2016-04-21T12:39:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2016, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/21 "2016-04-24T23:57:04Z")
You want a good treatment of mind-controlling evil? Read Dan Simmons’ 1989 novel **Carrion Comfort**. > **[Carrion Comfort](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrion_Comfort)** > > Carrion Comfort is a science fiction/horror novel by American writer Dan Simmons, published in 1989 in hard cover by Dark Harvest and in 1990 in paperback by Warner Books. It won the Bram Stoker Award, the Locus Poll Award for Best Horror Novel, and the August Derleth Award for Best Novel. It is based on a novelette of the same title, published in 1983 in the magazine Omni. The first half of the novelette makes up chapter 1 of the novel, while the second half forms chapter 3. > The novel portrays... It’s undeservedly forgotten beside his _Hyperion_ series, his _Ilium_ series, and his may other novels. At 636 pages, it’s a heavy read, too. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/22 "2016-04-25T01:26:45Z")
Peter Clines’ Ex-Heroes series (superheroes in a zombie post-apocalypse setting) has a mind-control villain. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/23 "2016-04-25T02:55:39Z")
I’m not familiar with Max Lord or The Mule. What about [Jasmine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasmine_%28Angel%29), from Angel? Unlike Kilgrave, her powers work over electronics: just seeing her image on television is enough to fall under her spell. Unlike Kilgrave, victims are emotionally bound to her. They adore her, they love her, they **want** to do things for her. Unlike Kilgrave, she has an easily-accessible Achilles Heel: exposure to her blood ends the effect. And unlike Kilgrave, she’s apparently after the greater good of ending all violence on earth (at the minor cost of eliminating all free will). ---
**Author:** ![bmoak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@bmoak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoak)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2016, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/24 "2016-04-25T02:58:53Z")
> [@Don\_Draper](#): > > The 80s comic book series “The New Mutants” had an interesting twist on the usual “mind controlling” character – a mind-controlling _heroine_ Xi’an “Shan” Coy Manh, a.k.a. Karma. Xi’an was a Vietnamese refugee with a very strong, moral code and sense of right and wrong. She despised the very nature of her unique ability (bending unwilling people to her will and controlling their actions) and hated to use it. She didn’t even want to be part of a superhero team (even a trainee team), but preferred to lead a normal, ordinary life. Yet circumstances - including an uncle who was a powerful crime boss - kept forcing her into situations where she had to use her powers. She often felt as manipulated by circumstance as her own ‘victims.’ > > I thought that was an interesting dynamic for a reluctant hero - someone who had fantastic abilities but was morally repelled by the nature of it. But apparently writer Chris Claremont couldn’t figure out what to do with her, as she was the first character written out of the series. IIRC, Karma’s power was more mental possession than Killgrave-type mind control. When she took control of someone, she was in the driver’s seat and they were basically unconscious. A close parallel would be Jericho from New Teen Titans. Karma was the one original New Mutant who appeared prior to the team’s debut. She debuted in a Marvel Team-Up Annual with Spider-Man and Fantastic Four. Karma’s crimelord uncle and her older brother, who had the same powers but no compunction using them, were the villains. Karma had to defeat him herself after he possessed the heroes and ended up burning out his brain. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/25 "2016-04-29T18:13:47Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > That’s an interesting wrinkle on the mind control theme. One of the issues in any story with a mind-controlling super villain is how do you limit his power to keep him from being an Out of Context problem for everyone he encounters (i.e., unbeatable). This sounds like a good solution: he has the ability to make people do things, but only if they have some element that wants to. Offers all kinds of options for interesting characterization. Come to think of it, Fred Saberhagen gradually revealed a twist to limit the villain’s mind-control power: _when unsheathed, the Sword of Glory makes anyone in the area genuinely desire to serve its holder for a period of days._ So obviously he has to periodically renew the effect to keep it going; and, obviously, anyone sent out on a mission will eventually shake off the effects unless they get back in time. Also obvious: people seek to serve him by acting in his best interest. Also obvious: they’re acting in his best interest as they see it. Take his current advisor; you knew him before you went under, right? And even then, you thought _that guy shouldn’t even be running a lemonade stand,_ right? Well, then, looking out for The Great Man means conspiring to bring down that advisor. Bam. After all, shouldn’t _you_ be the chief advisor? Heck, you know nobody adores him more than you do! So if you learn something that could be of use, you probably keep it to yourself until revealing it could earn you a promotion. I’m just _saying_, is all. And – wait, what’s with the newbie? Is he looking at you the way you’ve been looking at the chief advisor? He might be gunning for YOUR post! Well, if you’re out of work, you can’t serve The Great Man’s interests _at all_; and you certainly won’t be able to keep gunning for a post where you can do _more_; so make the newbie look bad, is what I’m saying: mildly argue against his plan, and then sabotage it so (a) he can’t suck up by pointing at a success, and (b) you look like the wise one. Because, hey: whoever does the best job of gaining favor with The Boss will be able to do him the most harm or the most good – and it’s _axiomatic_ that you should keep other people from doing him harm, which means you should be the one who can do him a lot of good. I mean, that’s just _logic_, right? So get going, already! It’s what your beloved leader would presumably want: someone who anticipates his needs! ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/26 "2016-04-29T18:26:03Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Come to think of it, Fred Saberhagen gradually revealed a twist to limit the villain’s mind-control power: _when unsheathed, the Sword of Glory makes anyone in the area genuinely desire to serve its holder for a period of days._ > Because, hey: whoever does the best job of gaining favor with The Boss will be able to do him the most harm or the most good – and it’s _axiomatic_ that you should keep other people from doing him harm, which means you should be the one who can do him a lot of good. I mean, that’s just _logic_, right? So get going, already! It’s what your beloved leader would presumably want: someone who anticipates his needs! See “Quarantine” by Greg Egan and “Callahan’s Lady” by Spider Robinson that use variations of these ideas. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/27 "2016-04-29T19:06:39Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > See “Quarantine” by Greg Egan and “Callahan’s Lady” by Spider Robinson that use variations of these ideas. I forgot to mention the other aspect: he’s a prince, who has nothing against his father the king – but we don’t care about what’s in the king’s best interests, do we? And we all agree the prince would be a better king, and be better off _as_ king? ---
**Author:** ![Totenfeier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@Totenfeier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Totenfeier)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/28 "2016-04-29T19:15:50Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > A little bit of both - he could easily affect emotions of one person at a time, but with effort he could affect the emotions of masses of people and do the other mind-control tricks, like erasing memory, etc. Naturally, he preferred the path of least effort. I would add that the Mule had a technology - the Visi-Sonor - which allowed him to both influence large numbers of people through his “concerts,” and amplified his power to the point that he was able to destroy the mind of another. I can’t recall right now the exact circumstance, but the Mule turned someone into a gibbering idiot who - was tormenting? had captured? - Bayta Darrell and was making advances to her - he didn’t like that, and it was that incident that ultimately led Bayta to put two and two together and stop his advance toward vanquishing the Second Foundation and attaining ultimate galactic power. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/29 "2016-04-29T22:59:12Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > Not that they’re likely to address it (or bring her back again at all, but would it work on gay men? Lesbians? An episode of the _Young Justice_ cartoon featuring the villain, Queen Bee, who could control people by making them fall in love with her, had this exchange between two of the heroes: “She can control the wills of most men.” “And some women!” ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/30 "2016-04-29T23:29:32Z")
> [@Totenfeier](#): > > I would add that the Mule had a technology - the Visi-Sonor - which allowed him to both influence large numbers of people through his “concerts,” and amplified his power to the point that he was able to destroy the mind of another. I can’t recall right now the exact circumstance, but the Mule turned someone into a gibbering idiot who - was tormenting? had captured? - Bayta Darrell and was making advances to her - he didn’t like that, and it was that incident that ultimately led Bayta to put two and two together and stop his advance toward vanquishing the Second Foundation and attaining ultimate galactic power. Yes, Dagobert the tenth (I think), the imperial heir was hassling Bayta, just because she didn’t want to be his consort (being a newlywed after all), and the Mule took him down. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808/31 "2016-05-01T21:52:02Z")
I don’t want to spoil PLANETARY for anyone; if you haven’t read it, read it now, because it’s terrific; but I do want to mention one particular character, and see whether anyone who’s read it can tell me if I’ve been missing something. As for the villain: [spoiler]Our hero, Elijah, gets told about the bad guy’s power: _“His mind stretches, and worms out, and lays eggs … Anyone who’s been within a hundred feet of Randall Dowling, Elijah . . . probably is Randall Dowling. Including you.”_ So, in the remaining issues: will our hero turn out to have been a sleeper agent all along, starting some plan to beat Dowling before just surrendering? Or maybe one of his teammates is a sleeper agent for Dowling; any character who’s shown up so far could be a sleeper agent for Dowling. Even folks who _haven’t_ shown up so far – the president, say, or a decoy of the same height and build and coloring as Dowling – _could be a sleeper agent for Dowling_. Why, the possibilities are endless![/spoiler] As for what happens: [spoiler]Nothing. Nothing happens. In the remaining issues, no one turns out to be a sleeper agent for Dowling. As far as I can tell, Dowling is never actually seen using his power. I don’t know why. I don’t get what the author was going for. Was it meant to be a Big Reveal, that Dowling didn’t really have that power? Nobody mentions it; but the story plays out the same, regardless: the heroic Elijah soon gets within a hundred feet of the ruthless Dowling, and Dowling gloats that “I can get into your brain before your powers harm us.” And then Dowling keeps talking until he gets killed – exactly as if he had no powers. No one later carries out some last command from Dowling; why would they?[/spoiler] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-controlling-super-villains-kilgrave-the-mule-max-lord-and-others/752808.md?page=1)