# Mind Your P's and Q's **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [June 7, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-your-ps-and-qs/624344 "2012-06-07T02:02:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![cynyc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@cynyc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cynyc)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-your-ps-and-qs/624344/1 "2012-06-07T02:02:17Z")
I wouldn’t ask Cecil. I’d ask Pat: > **[Grammarphobia: Grammar, etymology, linguistics, usage](https://www.grammarphobia.com/)** > > Grammar, etymology, linguistics, usage, and more from the bestselling language writers Patricia T. O\\'Conner and Stewart Kellerman ---
**Author:** ![svd678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@svd678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/svd678)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-your-ps-and-qs/624344/2 "2012-06-07T04:09:00Z")
I found no reference to Ps & Qs in that link. (Did I do something wrong?) ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-your-ps-and-qs/624344/3 "2012-06-07T04:20:43Z")
The grammarphobia article: [Mind your p’s and q’s](http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2007/02/mind-your-p%E2%80%99s-and-q%E2%80%99s.html) Uncle Cecil’s article: [What’s the origin of the expression “mind your P’s and Q’s”?](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/761/whats-the-origin-of-the-expression-mind-your-ps-and-qs) ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-your-ps-and-qs/624344/4 "2012-06-07T11:28:48Z")
Cecil doesn’t do much etymology nowadays, since the advent of the internet and so many websited dedicated to word/phrase origins. However, in his column (from 1989) he cites an OED reference from 1612 (spelled “Pee and Kew.”) Ms O’Conner on the Grammarphobia blog cites 1779, also from the OED. I don’t have an OED to check them, but 'praps some kind soul will do so here. Frankly, I find Cecil’s article more complete and more informative, but I guess it’s a matter of taste. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-your-ps-and-qs/624344/5 "2012-06-07T14:57:39Z")
[Etymonline.com](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=p&searchmode=none) > [@](#): > > To mind one’s Ps and Qs (1779), possibly is from confusion of these letters among children learning to write. Another theory traces it to old-time tavern-keepers tracking their patrons’ bar tabs in pints and quarts. But cf. also to be P and Q (1610s), “to be excellent,” a slang phrase said to derive from prime quality. In short, no definitive answer. It’s likely that several expressions were influenced by one another or melded together in common speech. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-your-ps-and-qs/624344/6 "2012-06-07T19:34:44Z")
Cecil’s reference is OK, but, although Hannah Cowley is real, and _Who’s the Dupe_ is a real play that she produced in 1779, it is not cited in the OED3 _s.v._ _p’s and q’s_ ---
**Author:** ![agnesnitt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d78d45/32.png) [@agnesnitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agnesnitt)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-your-ps-and-qs/624344/7 "2012-06-08T00:44:09Z")
I’m a little surprised by the answer that q.t. is an abbreviation for quiet. I’d like to point out that there is at least one famous latin expression in which ‘he who is silent’ forms a part. qui tacet consentire–he who is silent is take to agree. Therefore, there may be an equivalent expression like “qui tacet”-- that means “he/it who/which is silent.” While the declension may be incorrect (It may be qui tacere or something) I think it’s a more likely answer for Q.T. than an abbreviation for quiet. Q.T. is probably an old legal, parliamentary, or literary expression (like q.v.) that has passed from use. I for one think ‘quiet’ would be abbreviated as qt. Instead whenever I’ve seen the reference it’s always Q.T., which usually indicates an abbreviation of a Latin expression. I would check with a Classics professor. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-your-ps-and-qs/624344/8 "2012-06-08T01:07:37Z")
Etymonline again: > [@](#): > > q.t. > slang for “quiet,” in _on the q.t._, attested from 1874. Phrase _on the quiet_ appears from 1847. All the word origin sites say the same thing, with more detail. None suggests any connection to the Latin phrase. ---
**Author:** ![cynyc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@cynyc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cynyc)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-your-ps-and-qs/624344/9 "2012-06-08T02:53:00Z")
This was a Just Saying thing. I emailed Pat twice and she answered both times. I’ve never really used her site. We had a nice conversation on the word–the spoken word that I detest whenever I hear it: Empathetic. (Empathy.) Drives me crazy. What the hell is wrong with empathic? Who turned it into a version of emphasize or pathetic. This is in my hit parade of pet peeves. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-your-ps-and-qs/624344/10 "2012-06-08T19:07:43Z")
> [@agnesnitt](#): > > I’m a little surprised by the answer that q.t. is an abbreviation for quiet. > > I’d like to point out that there is at least one famous latin expression in which ‘he who is silent’ forms a part. > > qui tacet consentire–he who is silent is take to agree. > > Therefore, there may be an equivalent expression like “qui tacet”-- that means “he/it who/which is silent.” > > While the declension may be incorrect (It may be qui tacere or something) I think it’s a more likely answer for Q.T. than an abbreviation for quiet. > > Q.T. is probably an old legal, parliamentary, or literary expression (like q.v.) that has passed from use. > > I for one think ‘quiet’ would be abbreviated as qt. Instead whenever I’ve seen the reference it’s always Q.T., which usually indicates an abbreviation of a Latin expression. > > I would check with a Classics professor. But it makes no sense. “We want to do this on the he who is silent.” Bleah! Indeed, all the early citations in the OED are “strict” or “strictly q.t.”, which makes even less sense. And it’s not as though the word itself is obscure—it’s given us the English word “tacit”, and any performer knows, as well, that “tacet” is the musical equivalent of “This space intentionally left blank.” The OED says it’s “q[uie]t” (which used to be a common style of abbreviation, as in “M[iste]r” or “M[ain]e”), and I’d need some hard proof before I’d disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-your-ps-and-qs/624344/11 "2012-06-12T01:27:04Z")
> [@cynyc](#): > > Empathetic. (Empathy.) Drives me crazy. What the hell is wrong with empathic? Who turned it into a version of emphasize or pathetic. > > This is in my hit parade of pet peeves. Yet you don’t complain that it’s ‘sympathetic’ instead of ‘sympathic’? Besides, using “empathetic” frees up “empathic” for the sci-fi use. =) Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-your-ps-and-qs/624344/12 "2012-06-12T11:41:35Z")
The emphasis is on the empathy? ---
**Author:** ![Sloth4z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Sloth4z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sloth4z)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-your-ps-and-qs/624344/13 "2012-06-14T18:04:58Z")
For some reason I’ve always thought that “mind your P’s and Q’s,” meant be sure to say please and thank you. It’s a play on the similar sounding between Q and “thank you”. I don’t know how I got this idea, but I find it surprising how different it is from Cecil’s explanations. [http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/761/whats-the-origin-of-the-expression-mind-your-ps-and-qs](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/761/whats-the-origin-of-the-expression-mind-your-ps-and-qs) ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-your-ps-and-qs/624344/14 "2012-06-14T20:53:40Z")
Welcome to the Straight Dope Message Boards, **Sloth4z** , glad to have you with us. And thanks for providing a link to the column! Since there was already a thread on this topic, I’m merging your new thread into that one. Keeps all discussion on P’s and Q’s in the same place. On your comment: Agreed, there’s a pun on Q’s but there’s also that P’s sounds like a child’s rendition of “Please” (omitting the difficult L sound.) Attractive theory, but not mentioned by most etymologists. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-your-ps-and-qs/624344/15 "2012-06-14T23:31:22Z")
In logic, the letters p and q are typically used in the same way that x and y are used in algebra. Perhaps that has something to do with it? ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2012, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-your-ps-and-qs/624344/16 "2012-06-15T03:28:41Z")
No, the expression is much older than modern formalizations of logic. If that had been the case, the system (in reference to the old rules of _Barbara_, _Celarent_, _etc._) might have turned out something like \*“Mind your _e_’s and _i_’s.” ---
**Author:** ![cynyc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@cynyc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cynyc)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-your-ps-and-qs/624344/17 "2012-08-29T20:07:20Z")
I just remembered something. I read somewhere that it had to do with the olden way of setting type–one letter at a time. And the shop owner would remind the typesetters not to mix them up, the p’s and the q’s) when putting them away. FWIW ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-your-ps-and-qs/624344/18 "2012-08-29T20:27:00Z")
> [@cynyc](#): > > I just remembered something. I read somewhere that it had to do with the olden way of setting type–one letter at a time. And the shop owner would remind the typesetters not to mix them up, the p’s and the q’s) when putting them away. > > FWIW Did you perhaps read it in Cecil’s column? > **[What’s the origin of the expression “mind your P’s and Q’s”?](https://www.straightdope.com/21341927/what-s-the-origin-of-the-expression-mind-your-p-s-and-q-s)** Which is, you know, the subject under discussion here? Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![cynyc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@cynyc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cynyc)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-your-ps-and-qs/624344/19 "2012-08-29T20:52:04Z")
Cecil who? Or nope. 🙂 > [@Powers](#): > > Did you perhaps read it in Cecil’s column? > > [http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/761/whats-the-origin-of-the-expression-mind-your-ps-and-qs](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/761/whats-the-origin-of-the-expression-mind-your-ps-and-qs) > > Which is, you know, the subject under discussion here? > Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-your-ps-and-qs/624344/20 "2012-08-30T17:32:19Z")
I, for one, certainly encountered the typesetting argument long before Cecil wrote his first column. (And, deep in my past, I’ve actually used a composing stick and a California box.) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mind-your-ps-and-qs/624344.md?page=2)