# Mini-vans **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 23, 2001, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mini-vans/89198 "2001-10-23T23:24:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mini-vans/89198/121 "2001-10-24T17:34:12Z")
I don’t think Scarlett is nitpicking, here. She is demonstrating that the kid is either a) knowingly misrepresenting his situation (i.e. lying) or b) has so little understanding of the real world that he really believes what he is saying. IMHO, it’s a little of both. Either way, he has shown himself to be a nitwit. ---
**Author:** ![Scarlett67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scarlett67/32/7387_2.png) [@Scarlett67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarlett67)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mini-vans/89198/122 "2001-10-24T17:37:31Z")
**Demise** and **mouthbreather,** the point is not whether he’s paying his own bills or whether he’s _technically_ been legally able to drive for two years. The point is that he led us to believe other than the completely true facts. He’s shot any credibility he may have had at the beginning of this thread. I don’t have anything against kids who pay car loans or insurance that their parents got for them, or those who have learner’s permits. But Mr. Big Shot here has been shooting off his mouth about how he’s Mr. Independent, and trying to inflate his vast amount of driving experience to prove his idiotic point. For that matter, how do we know he **doesn’t** still have only a learner’s permit? For all we know, he could have been flunking his road test for two years. With this guy’s record of omitting the whole truth, it wouldn’t surprise me. (Say, if someone has been driving on a learner’s permit for two or five or fifteen years, does that mean they have that many years of credible driving experience? I’d say not.) ---
**Author:** ![BiblioCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@BiblioCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BiblioCat)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mini-vans/89198/123 "2001-10-24T17:40:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Demise \* > \*\*That is some serious nitpicking, almost artful. He is paying for the car out of his pocket. His parents are not making the payments on the car OR the insurance for him. They may have helped him get the car by using their credit record and their insurance policy, but _he is paying for it himself_. > He may not be paying as much as an emancipated 17 year-old that has no family would, but why is that bad thing? \*\* Nitpicking, maybe, but not serious nitpicking. There is NO WAY a 17yo could have bought a new car ( **any** new car) without a parent co-signing. I’d be willing to bet it was mom & dad who took out the loan and had Civil Defense as the co-owner/co-signer (listed 2nd). He is a rider on their insurance policy. He also said he hasn’t had to borrow money from his parents for six (?) months. So, is he paying rent? For food? Does he pay a portion of the electric bill? For his own health insurance? No? Then is is still getting money (financial assistance) from them. He implied in several posts that the car was **his** , the insurance policy was **his** , and that he was financially independent. I saw **lots** of backpedaling when confronted. As kabbes (I think…the insurance person) said, there is no freaking way a 17yo with a sports car would be covered by $110 a month. I smelled the bullshit as soon as I saw it. Demise, the “bad thing” which you spoke of is the lying, not the parental support. ---
**Author:** ![BiblioCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@BiblioCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BiblioCat)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mini-vans/89198/124 "2001-10-24T17:46:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Green Bean \* > \*\*…the kid is either > a) knowingly misrepresenting his situation (i.e. lying) > or > b) has so little understanding of the real world that he really believes what he is saying. > > IMHO, it’s a little of both.\*\* He’s **17**. I vote for **B**. ---
**Author:** ![mouthbreather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a698b9/32.png) [@mouthbreather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mouthbreather)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mini-vans/89198/125 "2001-10-24T17:51:23Z")
I’m not arguing that this kid isn’t a nitwit. However, he wasn’t lying. If someone had asked him how long ago got his **drivers license** , and he said 2Y3M, then that’s lying. Sorry folks, but if he got his learner’s permit at age 15½ he _has_ been driving that long. If you don’t agree, then what would you say he was doing from age 15½ to age 16? We’re not talking about a courtroom testimonial where he’s giving a sworn statement to his insurance company. Someone, in conversation, asked how long he had been driving, and he answered. Nothing dishonest about it at all, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![mouthbreather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a698b9/32.png) [@mouthbreather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mouthbreather)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mini-vans/89198/126 "2001-10-24T17:57:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scarlett67 \* > **Demise** and **mouthbreather,** the point is not …whether he’s _technically_ been legally able to drive for two years. Sorry, but that seems to me to be _precisely_ the point of your post above that I quoted. FTR, he has misrepresented a few things here. Just not that, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Big\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Big\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Big_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mini-vans/89198/127 "2001-10-24T17:58:07Z")
I don’t care how much power your minivan has or lacks, DRIVE THE SPEED LIMIT. At least the speed limit. 9 times out of 10 when there is a line of traffic behind one vehicle doing 15 under the speed limit, it’s a minivan. I understand why people with kids want a van, but I don’t think that a couple of 70 year old people have a lot of kids and need a minivan. I work part time at a Ford dealership, and the only people who buy those ridiculous things are blue hairs. And I also see the milage on them when they trade them in. Most minivans have a good resale value because you never see one with high mileage. Of course they’re going to be reliable when the engine never winds past 2000 RPM. I hate minivans. ---
**Author:** ![Scarlett67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scarlett67/32/7387_2.png) [@Scarlett67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarlett67)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mini-vans/89198/128 "2001-10-24T18:01:06Z")
> [@](#): > > **Sorry folks, but if he got his learner’s permit at age 15½ he _has_ been driving that long. If you don’t agree, then what would you say he was doing from age 15½ to age 16?** Practicing. I took some math classes in college. That doesn’t give me the right to claim to be a mathematician. ---
**Author:** ![mouthbreather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a698b9/32.png) [@mouthbreather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mouthbreather)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mini-vans/89198/129 "2001-10-24T18:07:50Z")
_sigh_ You can spin it any way you like, but for practical purposes, if he is the one behind the wheel and the car is being driven, then (wait for it…an incredible leap here…) HE IS DRIVING. The fact that he has a parent in the car does not change the fact that he is the one driving. ---
**Author:** ![Scarlett67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scarlett67/32/7387_2.png) [@Scarlett67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarlett67)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mini-vans/89198/130 "2001-10-24T18:12:25Z")
Ah . . . So if my pilot friend Pat takes me up in his plane every weekend for two years and lets me take the controls for a while each time, I can say I’ve been flying a Cessna for two years. It’s completely truthful and not deceptive at all. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![mouthbreather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a698b9/32.png) [@mouthbreather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mouthbreather)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mini-vans/89198/131 "2001-10-24T18:16:29Z")
No, because he is the one taking off and landing. If you put the headphones on, talked to the ATC tower, took off, flew the whole time, then landed, then yes you could make that claim. Sorry, bad analogy. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mini-vans/89198/132 "2001-10-24T18:24:16Z")
Thank god I don’t drive a minivan! I drive a full-size van with a hi-top. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Scarlett67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scarlett67/32/7387_2.png) [@Scarlett67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarlett67)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mini-vans/89198/133 "2001-10-24T18:28:16Z")
"You can spin it any way you like, but for practical purposes, if I am the one behind the controls and the plane is being flown, then (wait for it…an incredible leap here…) I am flying. The fact that I have a pilot in the plane does not change the fact that I am the one flying." Sound familiar? If you want to nitpick, we can nitpick. ---
**Author:** ![Dilbert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58f4c7/32.png) [@Dilbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dilbert)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mini-vans/89198/134 "2001-10-24T18:32:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Big Sam \* > \*\*I don’t care how much power your minivan has or lacks, DRIVE THE SPEED LIMIT. At least the speed limit. 9 times out of 10 when there is a line of traffic behind one vehicle doing 15 under the speed limit, it’s a minivan. /B] The speed limit is not a mandatory speed. It is the maximum speed legally allowed. Unless posted, you are not legally obligated to go the speed limit. I have seen minimums posted, but they were a minimum of 40 in a 65. Sure you can get pulled over for creating a traffic hazard if you go too slow, but I’d wager you’d have to be going at least 15 under with no blinkers on for this to happen. I think you’d be more likely to get pull over for doing 5 or more over than 5 or more under. Oh, and I doubt 9 times out of 10 it’s a minivan. I’ll put my money on semis and school buses. I’m not sure where you live, but I think the primary purchasers minivans in my area would definitely be people with kids. I can’t recall the last time I saw an old person driving a minivan. Of course the sight of a minivan is less common with the popularity of SUV’s. ---
**Author:** ![mouthbreather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a698b9/32.png) [@mouthbreather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mouthbreather)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mini-vans/89198/135 "2001-10-24T18:39:36Z")
That’s all well and good – also a convenient way to ignore my last post, so I’ll try again. I have to wonder if you’re being dense on purpose. If you need for me to spell it out to you, I guess I will. OK, very slowly now… If he is the one who sits down behind the wheel, puts the key in the ignition, manipulates the steering wheel, is the only one working the brake, gas, and clutch (if applicable), gets the car out on the road, and returns it to a parking spot, then he is the one DRIVING. Your flying analogy doesn’t hold any water – it would be analogous to this kid’s dad driving, and his dad let him steer for a minute. No, I wouldn’t call that driving, just as I wouldn’t call your example flying. Now, if your pilot friend JUST SAT THERE while you did everything necessary to fly the plane (much like a licensed driver does when someone with a permit is driving), then you would be flying. Is it really this difficult? ---
**Author:** ![Bottle\_of\_Smoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Bottle\_of\_Smoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bottle_of_Smoke)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mini-vans/89198/136 "2001-10-24T19:02:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by OpalCat \* > **Thank god I don’t drive a minivan! I drive a full-size van with a hi-top.** A full-size van with a hi-top. Oh Christ, Opal! You people are the worst of all! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Scarlett67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scarlett67/32/7387_2.png) [@Scarlett67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarlett67)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mini-vans/89198/137 "2001-10-24T19:14:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Your flying analogy doesn’t hold any water\*\* It was your analogy, not mine. Don’t blame me if you oversimplified yourself right out of the argument. OK, so yes, he was LITERALLY, TECHNICALLY, FACTUALLY driving the car. I repeat my earlier contention that such time spent driving while under the constrictions of a learner’s permit does not count as credible driving experience. I repeat my question to you: If a person continually flunks the road test over a period of two years, and continued to drive on a learner’s permit, would you say that that person has two years of CREDIBLE driving experience, such that you would consider it acceptable for that person to claim that “I’ve been driving for two years”? Sheesh. And you accuse _me_ of nitpicking? ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mini-vans/89198/138 "2001-10-24T19:26:58Z")
1997 Chrysler Town & Country (extended cab) driver checking in here. Some basic facts here: 1. I paid for it with no help at all from my parents. All right, all right! It was a gift from my husband’s uncle! (Mr. Pundit is Unca Al’s favorite nephew; what can I say?) 2. I have my own insurance and my own umbrella policy should, God forbid, I cause injury to someone while driving. (Perhaps someone tailgating?🙂 3. I hate getting behind mini-vans and SUV’s, too, because of the visibility problem. It _is_ a nuisance. 4. Considering the gripe of this thread, “Civil Disobedience” is an ironic UserName, no? 5. Hi Opal! 6. I think we’ve successfully initiated the kid into the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Demise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@Demise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demise)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mini-vans/89198/139 "2001-10-24T19:27:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kabbes \* > **No. He is paying the _excess_ insurance that it takes to _add himself to his father’s cover_. His father may well be paying $400 per month or more for all we know (entirely possible), meaning that our young friend is paying less than 20% of the total. This is a far cry from his initial insistance that he is paying the insurance himself.** I disagree. If **CD** is paying the difference between what his parents’ insurance would be without him on it and with him on it, then he is paying for himself to be insured. Yes, it would be more expensive if he had his own policy. > [@](#): > > **And if he lied on this, who knows what else he lied on? I’m not so sure I believe that he is paying that entire hire purchase per month himself either. More likely it is a long term loan from his parents of which is is paying some now. I have no way of verifying this but I _do_ know that he has proved himself unreliable. And I have enough financial nous to know that the purchase of a brand new 325hp sports car requires a larger amount of money than I would expect a $10 per hour wage slave to earn without serious financial support.** Hell, he could be lying about having a 2002 Camaro SS in the first place. Let’s see, payments for that car (whose price range is 25k to 27k) on a 5 year note for me personally would be about $550-$600 a month. It would be considerably less if you went for a balloon payment option. **CD** claims to get $10/hr for 35 hrs a week, plus some unspecified income from “writing software”. Let’s just use his hourly income…so $1500/mo gross, say he took 3 deductions on his W4, so subtract about 15% for $1275 net. Toss in his insurance cost of $110 for a total of $565 left over after paying his car costs (minus gas) for the month. If he lives with his parents and doesn’t pay rent or bills (I didn’t at 17, and we were far from rich), then he makes plenty to be able to afford that car, while living with his parents. What happens when he wants to move out? I don’t know, then you might be able to claim that his parents are paying for the car. > [@](#): > > **The posturing is unacceptable. We do not all have rich mummy and daddy to run to to buy us (or help us to buy) the latest desirable automobile. Most of us must make do with what we can. It is the height of obnoxiousness for this teen to preach to those responsible for raising families the car choice that they should make.** Yes, it is irritating that he has a better car than me and has the gall to bitch about the car choices that others may be forced into by circumstance. I’m not defending his little “rant”, I’m just saying that he may not be lying. Then again, anything he posts could be a lie, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![mouthbreather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a698b9/32.png) [@mouthbreather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mouthbreather)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mini-vans/89198/140 "2001-10-24T19:31:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scarlett67 \* > It was your analogy, not mine. Don’t blame me if you oversimplified yourself right out of the argument. 😕 What? Um, no, the flying analogy was yours. Go back and read. You first brought it up with the “So if my pilot friend Pat takes me up…” post. > [@](#): > > OK, so yes, he was LITERALLY, TECHNICALLY, FACTUALLY driving the car. Thank you. > [@](#): > > I repeat my earlier contention that such time spent driving while under the constrictions of a learner’s permit does not count as credible driving experience. Credible driving experience? Is that the same as driving? If so, I see your point, but I don’t agree. If not, please explain the difference. > [@](#): > > I repeat my question to you: If a person continually flunks the road test over a period of two years, and continued to drive on a learner’s permit, would you say that that person has two years of CREDIBLE driving experience, such that you would consider it acceptable for that person to claim that “I’ve been driving for two years”? Yes. That person has been driving for two years. The quality of his driving does not change that fact. Again, if I’m missing your point on how “credible driving experience” is different from “driving”, then let me know. > [@](#): > > Sheesh. And you accuse _me_ of nitpicking? I don’t recall accusing you of nitpicking. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mini-vans/89198.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mini-vans/89198.md?page=8)