# Minimalism in Science Fiction **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 5, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067 "2010-06-05T15:55:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/1 "2010-06-05T15:55:30Z")
Minimalism is when the scale of the setting is underestimated (often horribly) by the authors. Some cases in Star Wars: -Three million clone troopers for a galactic-scale war. For Pete’s sake, the American army in World War II could field twelve million men and its one part of a single planet! -Twenty-five thousand Star Destroyers. Even if we underestimate and say that in the Galactic Empire there are sixty-nine million (canon) inhabited systems it still means a single Star Destroyer protects roughly two thousand eight hundred systems. I understand that most people (including myself) would have trouble grasping the idea of a galactic-scale civilization, but at least _try_! ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/2 "2010-06-05T16:01:39Z")
I thought minimalism was something different, like where the genre is stripped down to it’s most basic aspects, like made more realistic and so forth. Wouldn’t this just be huge underestimations by authors? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/3 "2010-06-05T16:10:33Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > I thought minimalism was something different, like where the genre is stripped down to it’s most basic aspects, like made more realistic and so forth. > > Wouldn’t this just be huge underestimations by authors? Well there are two terms for minimalism: one is basically in the sense of minimal prose while the other is this. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/4 "2010-06-05T16:12:10Z")
I thought this was minimalism in Science Fiction: > [@Alfred Bester in "The Stars My Destination"](#): > > HE WAS ON THE BRAWLING SPANISH > > STAIRS. HE WAS ON THE BRAWLING > > SPANISH STAIRS. HE WAS ON THE > > BRAWLING SPANISH STAIRS. HE WAS > > ON THE BRAWLING SPANISH STAIRS. > > HE WAS ON THE BRAWLING SPANISH > > STAIRS. HE WAS ON THE BRAWLING > > SPANISH STAIRS. HE WAS ON THE > > BRAWLING SPANISH STAIRS. HE WAS > > ON THE BRAWLING SPANISH STAIRS. Can’t you just hear it set to music by Philip Glass? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/5 "2010-06-05T16:26:22Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Even if we underestimate and say that in the Galactic Empire there are sixty-nine million (canon) inhabited systems Wait, really? 69 million systems? That’s canon? The Senate chambers we saw had nowhere near 69m seats, and I seriously doubt that many individual systems would actually be governable under a single body politic, even if they were all of one species. A multi-species empire would collapse long before they got to 1 million systems, much less 69 million - there would be way too many differences, attitudes, belief systems to be integrated. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/6 "2010-06-05T16:29:42Z")
As **Curtis** has already brought up Traviss’s one-woman crusade to manufacture The Jedi-Palpatine Conspiracy, I don’t really have anything to add. > [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > Can’t you just hear it set to music by Philip Glass? Thankfully not. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/7 "2010-06-05T16:33:38Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Wait, really? 69 million systems? That’s canon? > > The Senate chambers we saw had nowhere near 69m seats, and I seriously doubt that many individual systems would actually be governable under a single body politic, even if they were all of one species. A multi-species empire would collapse long before they got to 1 million systems, much less 69 million - there would be way too many differences, attitudes, belief systems to be integrated. Its a **Galactic** government and that’s the way its in Star Wars! Plus the Senate seats are by sectors not systems any more than our Senate seats are by states not by counties or cities. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/8 "2010-06-05T17:08:47Z")
From Wookiepedia: > [@](#): > > Senators were beings who represented their planet, system, and/or sector in the Galactic Senate of the Galactic Republic, Imperial Senate of the Galactic Empire, New Republic Senate, or Galactic Alliance Senate. > > They also acted as sectorial heads of state in the Old Republic, New Republic, and Galactic Alliance senates. Some senators alternately represented very powerful megacorporations and industries, such as the Trade Federation or the Corporate Alliance. During the waning days of the Old Republic, many senators were corrupt and decadent. Looks like you had all sorts in the senate, more than enough to fill 69m seats. Anyway, this is an example of what you started this thread about (I guess) - a “Republic” with 69million+ senators is unworkable. A “Republic” with 69,000 senators is unworkable, especially given the speciation of the SW universe. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/9 "2010-06-05T17:31:20Z")
I think the problem is the opposite - what I’d call “biggism”, in which science fiction writers throw HUUUUGE numbers at the readers in order to distract them from their storytelling deficiencies. For instance, a few years ago I started reading “Consider Phlebas” by Iain M. Banks. Within the first 100 pages, we had a spaceship being attacked by 100,000 missiles, a collection of millions of superintelligent AIs, a casual genocide of 57 million innocent people, a ringworld, and a fucking Dyson sphere. And at the same time, the writing was _terrible_. I gave up almost immeidately. Some wirters think that throwing big numbers (69 million systems? Really?) at readers is somehow impressive. It isn’t. What we want is depth and complexity - that every system be fleshed out and provided some distinction. Anyone can write numbers. For instance: 138 million inhabited systems! My universe is TWICE as awesome as Star Wars! ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/10 "2010-06-05T17:34:23Z")
NM ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/11 "2010-06-05T17:58:20Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Anyone can write numbers. Pay attention some time to the numbers they use for populations in s.f. and notice how often it is roughly equivalent (or a multiple of) to the population of the United States or the Earth at the time of writing. It’s amusing. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/12 "2010-06-05T18:06:28Z")
The real failure of imagination here is not the number of troopers, but that they are using tactics from the Civil War, more or less. ---
**Author:** ![kasuo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8c91f0/32.png) [@kasuo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kasuo)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/13 "2010-06-05T18:06:37Z")
I noticed this a lot in Star Trek Next Generation. The kind of numbers they threw out there seemed rather small. ---
**Author:** ![Zoinks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/db5fbb/32.png) [@Zoinks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoinks)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/14 "2010-06-05T18:58:41Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I think the problem is the opposite - what I’d call “biggism”, in which science fiction writers throw HUUUUGE numbers at the readers in order to distract them from their storytelling deficiencies. For instance, a few years ago I started reading “Consider Phlebas” by Iain M. Banks. Within the first 100 pages, we had a spaceship being attacked by 100,000 missiles, a collection of millions of superintelligent AIs, a casual genocide of 57 million innocent people, a ringworld, and a fucking Dyson sphere. And at the same time, the writing was _terrible_. I gave up almost immeidately. God, yeah. Everyone keeps recommending the Culture books but I can never get through them because of the writing. ---
**Author:** ![merrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@merrick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/merrick)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/15 "2010-06-05T19:00:45Z")
TV Tropes (naturally) has a page for this: [Sci Fi Writers Have No Sense Of Scale](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SciFiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale). Most of the examples are due to people using million/billion/trillion more-or-less interchangably to mean “lots and lots and lots”. ---
**Author:** ![wunderkammer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ed8c4c/32.png) [@wunderkammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wunderkammer)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/16 "2010-06-05T19:10:25Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Well there are two terms for minimalism: one is basically in the sense of minimal prose while the other is this. No it isn’t. If you really want to play fast and loose with language, _misunderestimate_ may be the work you’re looking for. Minimalism in science fiction is [this.](http://www.flickr.com/photos/ilikegraphics/3780023217/in/set-72157621883145272/) ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/17 "2010-06-05T21:32:35Z")
NM. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/18 "2010-06-05T22:36:47Z")
Back in the sixties, there was a book about the original _Star Trek_ series. The show’s staff had worked with the author so it was considered “canon”. In addition to information about the show, it had a section of information on the show’s setting - stuff about the Enterprise and star fleet and the Federation. One of the things in the book was a map of the Federation and the Klingon and Romulan Empires. It showed that the Federation encompassed a significant portion of the galaxy - approximately a sixth of the entire galaxy. Another thing the book mentioned was how many Enterprise-class starships there were - thirteen. No way. The galaxy is huge. This would be like the United States trying to fight World War II with only thirteen airplanes. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/19 "2010-06-05T22:50:56Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Back in the sixties, there was a book about the original _Star Trek_ series. The show’s staff had worked with the author so it was considered “canon”. In addition to information about the show, it had a section of information on the show’s setting - stuff about the Enterprise and star fleet and the Federation. If the book you’re thinking of was the [_Star Fleet Technical Manual_](http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Star_Trek_Star_Fleet_Technical_Manual), you’ve got some holes in your argument. If you have a cite to back up your claim that it was canon, I’ll be happy to concede that point, but as it was first published in 1975, 6 years after TOS went off the air and the a year after the animated series stopped airing new episodes, I don’t see how it could possibly be relevant. Star Trek was dead at that point. A ham sandwich could have been canon and it wouldn’t have mattered. Also, it did not list 13 starships. It listed, by rough count: 14 _Constitution_-class Heavy Cruisers (like USS _Enterprise_) 16 _Bonhomme Richard_-class Heavy Cruisers 4 replacements for _Constitution_-class vessels lost in the line of duty 111 _Archernar_-class Heavy Cruisers 20 _Saladin_-class Destroyers 10 _Siva_-class Destroyers 26 _Cochise_-class Destroyers 15 _Hermes_-class Scouts 16 _Monoceros_-class Scouts 9 _Cygnus_-class Scouts 20 _Federation_-class Dreadnoughts That’s 261 ships. And a shitload of Tugs I don’t feel like counting at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/20 "2010-06-05T23:02:58Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > If the book you’re thinking of was the [_Star Fleet Technical Manual_](http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Star_Trek_Star_Fleet_Technical_Manual), you’ve got some holes in your argument. > > If you have a cite to back up your claim that it was canon, I’ll be happy to concede that point, but as it was first published in 1975, 6 years after TOS went off the air and the a year after the animated series stopped airing new episodes, I don’t see how it could possibly be relevant. Star Trek was dead at that point. A ham sandwich could have been canon and it wouldn’t have mattered. > > Also, it did not list 13 starships. It listed, by rough count: > > 14 _Constitution_-class Heavy Cruisers (like USS _Enterprise_) > 16 _Bonhomme Richard_-class Heavy Cruisers > 4 replacements for _Constitution_-class vessels lost in the line of duty > 111 _Archernar_-class Heavy Cruisers > > 20 _Saladin_-class Destroyers > 10 _Siva_-class Destroyers > 26 _Cochise_-class Destroyers > > 15 _Hermes_-class Scouts > 16 _Monoceros_-class Scouts > 9 _Cygnus_-class Scouts > > 20 _Federation_-class Dreadnoughts > > That’s 261 ships. And a shitload of Tugs I don’t feel like counting at the moment. While I agree with your ultimate point, I took _Little Nemo_ to mean that there were only a baker’s dozen _Constitution_ class ships in all of Starfleet, not that Starfleet consisted of only those thirteen vessels. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067.md?page=2)