# Minimalism in Science Fiction **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 5, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067 "2010-06-05T15:55:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/41 "2010-06-06T20:23:25Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Star Trek minimalism hit its peak with the costuming of [Orion slave girls](http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.beertripper.com/startrek_images/bp-ENT-Orion_Slave_Girl_Bobbi_Sue_Hot.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.beertripper.com/startrek_chart/star_trek_number_22_ENT_Orion_Slave_Girls.html&usg=__XbwGmXMs5luwLz3KHFp4cjbNiSw=&h=480&w=366&sz=42&hl=en&start=7&itbs=1&tbnid=gc5TOwb4lR9AEM:&tbnh=129&tbnw=98&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dstar%2Btrek%2Bcostumes%2Borion%2Bslave%2Bgirl%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1). I’ll be in my bedroom. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/42 "2010-06-06T22:48:23Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It definitely wasn’t the Technical Manual. I had a copy of the Technical Manual when it came out - it was later than the book I referred to and I noted the expanded Star Fleet roster in that book because I was thinking it was probably a reaction to people like me who though the original thirteen ship roster was ridiculous. > > I think the book was _The Making of Star Trek_ by Stephen E. Whitfield. But it might have been _The World of Star Trek_ by David Gerrold. I had both books as a young’un. > > As for it being canon, the author was clear that, along with the interviews with the show’s staff, he was basing his information on the show’s “bible” - which was the guidelines written by Roddenberry and other on the _Star Trek_ staff to describe the show’s setting and characters to potential scriptwriters for the series. So it was canon at its most official - if Gene Roddenberry said Star Fleet consisted of thirteen starships, then that’s that. BTW, the 12 number comes from the episode “Tomorrow is Yesterday.” From the Blish version Christopher: It must have taken quite a lot of money to build a ship like this. Kirk: Indeed it did. There are only 12 like it in the Fleet. As for Galactic Empires not being galactic, might I remind everyone of our “World” Series. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/43 "2010-06-07T10:47:21Z")
Speaking of the old ST manual, I have an original. When you are a geeked out 12 year old the book was a world of wonder. Almost every thing in the book was later changed but at the time it was the cat’s meow. About the number of ships they listed the original 12 or so then had about a hundred listed as further construction. The galaxy map was also there as well. I have scanned the appropriate pages of the manual if anyone is interested in how they appeared. Galaxy Map [![](https://farm5.static.flickr.com/4064/4678449046_296f1475b1_b.jpg) ](https://farm5.static.flickr.com/4064/4678449046_296f1475b1_b.jpg) Starship List [![](https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1282/4677817521_1a401a2fdf_b.jpg) ](https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1282/4677817521_1a401a2fdf_b.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/44 "2010-06-07T12:33:33Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > Almost every thing in the book was later changed but at the time it was the cat’s meow. I don’t know anyone who grew up reading the original _Technical Manual_ who didn’t get stoked when the _Dreadnought_-style _Enterprise_ burst on the scene in “All Good Things.” I personally said “It’s about time!” out loud. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/45 "2010-06-07T13:08:43Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > As for Galactic Empires not being galactic, might I remind everyone of our “World” Series. Not to mention the exclusively Terran participation in the “Miss Universe” pageant. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/46 "2010-06-07T14:57:50Z")
Aesiron - That would go along way towards explaining why the Enterprise is “the only available ship in the quadrant” in every episode. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > That’s because its realistic. If there was an actual Galaxy-spanning government/civilization it would have tens of millions (probably a billion) inhabited star systems. What’d you want them to? Have the Galactic Empire have five hundred systems or what? These factoids are interesting as a backdrop, but how do they relate to the actual story? Is a future civilization going to deploy a million space battleships against a planet or are they going to send one Starship Enterprise Swiss Army Knife ship? Does each plot conflict end with the hero ship firing its superweapon and taking out a thousand dreadnaughts at the end of each episode? How relevant is an “empire” of millions of planets completely separated by light years of space? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/47 "2010-06-07T15:06:07Z")
First of all, we don’t know how many habitable planets a galaxy can have. Maybe Earthlike planets are so rare, and terraforming so difficult, that the entire galaxy contains only a few thousand inhabited worlds. That’s just as likely as a billion worlds. Second of all, how much does an interplanetary warsship cost? Maybe each is worth the GDP of a thousand worlds. I could see why there wouldn’t be enough of them Third of all, if there\* are\*millions of worlds, the very concept of a galactic empire is unthinkable. No organization can be that large and that complex without collapsing into tens of thousands of warring factions. I could see, maybe, millions of inhabited worlds - but a single unifying political structure? Impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/48 "2010-06-07T15:45:14Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > Speaking of the old ST manual, I have an original. When you are a geeked out 12 year old the book was a world of wonder. Almost every thing in the book was later changed but at the time it was the cat’s meow… Boy, you aren’t kidding. I still remember how delighted I was when I got my copy from the old Kaufmann’s department store (no longer there) in my hometown. I still have the book in its original black plastic binder. I loved that thing to death back then. When they referred to several of the ships mentioned in it in ST:TMP, I just about jumped out of my seat! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/49 "2010-06-07T16:17:27Z")
> [@](#): > > First of all, we don’t know how many habitable planets a galaxy can have. Maybe Earthlike planets are so rare, and terraforming so difficult, that the entire galaxy contains only a few thousand inhabited worlds. That’s just as likely as a billion worlds. No hard figures. But the Enterprise came across dozens of new worlds during its five year mission. So inhabited planets don’t seem to be rare. > [@](#): > > Second of all, how much does an interplanetary warsship cost? Maybe each is worth the GDP of a thousand worlds. I could see why there wouldn’t be enough of them The starship Enterprise was often compared to the aircraft carrier Enterprise (which was the state of the art “ship of the line” when the show was produced) so I figure they were equivalent in cost. The difference is the United States is one country on a single planet. The federation was thousands of planets or more - they should have been able to afford a fleet thousands of times bigger than the United States Navy. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/50 "2010-06-07T16:26:33Z")
I was talking about galactic empires in general, actually. The ST universe doesn’t make much sense anyway (and is, IMHO, one of the most boring major invented worlds out there). ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/51 "2010-06-07T16:36:43Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > No hard figures. But the Enterprise came across dozens of new worlds during its five year mission. So inhabited planets don’t seem to be rare.The starship Enterprise was often compared to the aircraft carrier Enterprise (which was the state of the art “ship of the line” when the show was produced) so I figure they were equivalent in cost. The difference is the United States is one country on a single planet. The federation was thousands of planets or more - they should have been able to afford a fleet thousands of times bigger than the United States Navy. If you’re going to make such a comparison, I think you should be comparing the United Federation of Planets to the United States of America. Clearly the names are meant to imply that, though it’s kind of iffy. (Given that Vulcan has an ambassador to Earth & all.) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/52 "2010-06-07T16:59:05Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The starship Enterprise was often compared to the aircraft carrier Enterprise (which was the state of the art “ship of the line” when the show was produced) so I figure they were equivalent in cost. The difference is the United States is one country on a single planet. The federation was thousands of planets or more - they should have been able to afford a fleet thousands of times bigger than the United States Navy. Roddenberry also intended Kirk be like a Captain of a British ship in the early 19th Century, in that he is often out of touch with his superiors and thus must make his own decisions (Balance of Terror being the best example.) As for the number of ships. perhaps a lot more the twelve had gotten build, but they seemed to have lost one every couple of weeks, so maybe they were doing the best they could to keep up. I seem to recall that in the novelization of ST:TMP it was mentioned that Kirk’s fame came in part from being one of the few captains who brought his ship back at the end of the mission more or less in one piece. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/53 "2010-06-08T01:02:53Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Aesiron - That would go along way towards explaining why the Enterprise is “the only available ship in the quadrant” in every episode. > > These factoids are interesting as a backdrop, but how do they relate to the actual story? Is a future civilization going to deploy a million space battleships against a planet or are they going to send one Starship Enterprise Swiss Army Knife ship? Does each plot conflict end with the hero ship firing its superweapon and taking out a thousand dreadnaughts at the end of each episode? > > How relevant is an “empire” of millions of planets completely separated by light years of space? Because I expect at least some sanity and realism. If in a technothriller novel set on Earth it depicted there being only 50,000 soldiers in China it would be laughable and stupid. Ditto for this. Also for the Star Wars Galaxy, much of the Galaxy is unified by the fact that humans are the dominant species. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/54 "2010-06-08T05:48:19Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Also for the Star Wars Galaxy, much of the Galaxy is unified by the fact that humans are the dominant species. Have you met humans before? A human-dominated galaxy would be the \*least \*unified thing possible. Maybe I could accept a galaxy united by some serene, non-competative alien race, but humans? ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/55 "2010-06-08T14:03:10Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Have you met humans before? A human-dominated galaxy would be the \*least \*unified thing possible. Maybe I could accept a galaxy united by some serene, non-competative alien race, but humans? In the presence of other species I have no trouble believing that humans would band together (at least more so than they do IRL). ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/56 "2010-06-08T14:24:24Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Because I expect at least some sanity and realism. If in a technothriller novel set on Earth it depicted there being only 50,000 soldiers in China it would be laughable and stupid. Ditto for this. You throw realism out the window the second you bring in FTL drives and artificial gravity. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/57 "2010-06-08T14:29:02Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > You throw realism out the window the second you bring in FTL drives and artificial gravity. It’s called the suspension of disbelief. It’s easy to accept that in the future they have some advanced but unexplained technology that allows people to travel at high speeds or whatever but stuff like what **Curtis** is mentioning can break that suspension of disbelief. I mean, really, it wouldn’t have been difficult for the creators to just take ten minutes to think about how silly their numbers were and make the counts higher. This is exactly like when one of my D&D players tries to do something ridiculous and implausible and explains it away with “what realism? This is a game with dragons and wizards, man!” ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/58 "2010-06-08T16:01:16Z")
I think the saying is, “people will accept the impossible, but not the unlikely.” In other words, you can change the rules, but you still have to follow them. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/59 "2010-06-08T16:09:53Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > It’s called the suspension of disbelief. It’s easy to accept that in the future they have some advanced but unexplained technology that allows people to travel at high speeds or whatever but stuff like what **Curtis** is mentioning can break that suspension of disbelief. I mean, really, it wouldn’t have been difficult for the creators to just take ten minutes to think about how silly their numbers were and make the counts higher. > > This is exactly like when one of my D&D players tries to do something ridiculous and implausible and explains it away with “what realism? This is a game with dragons and wizards, man!” Oh, I’m down with suspension of disbelief. I just don’t find the fact that Kirk’s Enterprise is only one of 12 such starships to be a breaking point for mine. Much harder for me to accept is the idea that Starfleet accepts him going on all landing parties. (Though there’s a fair number of them which, by their very nature, he could not delegate.) My suspension of disbelief breaks mostly on character issues. The TOS, DS9, and original trilogy Star Wars characters are mostly believable (I mean the main cast, not Obi-Wan & Yoda.) TNG, Voyager, and the prequel characters, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067/60 "2010-06-08T16:12:34Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Third of all, if there\* are\*millions of worlds, the very concept of a galactic empire is unthinkable. No organization can be that large and that complex without collapsing into tens of thousands of warring factions. I could see, maybe, millions of inhabited worlds - but a single unifying political structure? Impossible. Hmmm. Not sure I agree. Seems like the same thinking as this: [QUOTE=Some imaginary guy in the 1700s] If there are millions of citizens, the very concept of a nation is unthinkable. No organization can be that large and that complex without collapsing into tens of thousands of warring factions. I could see, maybe, millions of people on a continent - but a single unifying political structure? Impossible. [/QUOTE] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minimalism-in-science-fiction/542067.md?page=4)