# Minneapolis Bridge Collapse-harbinger of Things To Come? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 2, 2007, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110 "2007-08-02T11:16:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![randwill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@randwill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randwill)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/21 "2007-08-02T20:11:51Z")
I’m just wondering how Bill O’Reilly is gonna’ blame the bridge collapse on the left-wing media and Hillary Clinton. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/22 "2007-08-02T20:16:21Z")
Congress controls Highway Administration funding. Congress is controlled by Democrats right now. Easy, see? OTOH, if his sniping can get some more money cracked loose for highway maintenance, that wouldn’t be a bad thing, and I’d tollerate a fair degree of partisan sniping if that’s what’s needful to get the funds. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/23 "2007-08-02T20:38:18Z")
[QUOTE=Dinsdale] Heard there was plenty of money going to building some dandy bridges, roads, and other infrastructure in Iraq. You guys sure have some messed up priorities! [/QUOTE] [Moderating] **Dinsdale** , please refrain from political comments such as this in GQ. If you want to comment about Iraq, there are plenty of other places for it. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![BrandonR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@BrandonR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrandonR)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/24 "2007-08-02T20:45:06Z")
[QUOTE=AuntiePam] One of the bridges that I cross every day now has a sign saying “Safe for one truck only. Prepare to stop.” It’s a bit worrisome. [/QUOTE] Allow me to translate… Stop before coming to bridge, make sure no one else is coming the opposite way, and proceed to put the pedal to the metal and don’t stop until you’re safely on the other side. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/25 "2007-08-02T21:59:05Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] The repairs were only being done on the surface, not on the structure itself. The resurfacing is pretty much a regular, annual maintanance. I don’t think were any current plans to overhaul the substructure, just to replace the whole bridge sometime in the next 10-15 years. [/QUOTE] Yeah, the “repairs” were basically just resurfacing, fixing the potholes. But the bridge was only 40 years into an expected lifespan of 70-75 years. They weren’t planning to replace it “sometime in the next 10-15 years” (unless they needed to expand it because of the traffic). And it probably would have been used beyond the 2030’s despite the ‘expected lifespan’ – look at the I-35/Crosstown bridges just a few miles south of this – they are many years beyond their expected lifespan, but are still in use. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/26 "2007-08-02T22:12:24Z")
[QUOTE=BrandonR] Allow me to translate… Stop before coming to bridge, make sure no one else is coming the opposite way, and proceed to put the pedal to the metal and don’t stop until you’re safely on the other side. 😃 [/QUOTE] I do that. Wouldn’t surprise me if more people are speeding across bridges for awhile. I wonder how fast I need to be going to get airborne, if I need to get airborne. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![A.R.Cane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@A.R.Cane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.R.Cane)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/27 "2007-08-03T00:22:18Z")
Surely someone else must remember the debate over the Surface Transportation Bill in '04/'05. The Bush administration wanted to keep spending at a certain level, but finally settled of a number a few billion above that, although considerable less than what was asked for. During this period, Bush made a statement the he considered infrastucture to be an “entitlement” issue, which I found rather astonishing. I don’t know that the reduction in spending in the Surface Transportation Act of 2005 affected any planned structural repair on this particular bridge, but I do recall the issue of deficient bridges being a point of contention in the debates. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/28 "2007-08-03T01:11:18Z")
[QUOTE=AuntiePam] I do that. Wouldn’t surprise me if more people are speeding across bridges for awhile. I wonder how fast I need to be going to get airborne, if I need to get airborne. 😉 [/QUOTE] At times when I’m on one of those soaring freeway interchange ramps 50 or 60 ft high I think, “Bad time for an earthquake.” If the bridge was actually scheduled for replacement in 10 years or so they should be startig the planning now. I have never quite understood finding fatigue cracks in structures and then not doing anything. It’s clear to me that the structure wasn’t designed to survive the level of continued load reversals that it is undergoing. Fatigue cracks are failures to my mind. Any structural or civil engineers around to straighten me out? ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/29 "2007-08-03T05:05:10Z")
You might want to read [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=431236) thread. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/30 "2007-08-03T10:31:29Z")
I’d just like to add that it can be difficult to get a bridge replaced _before_ a collapse. In my area, like just about every other, we have deteriorating bridges and regular inspections. A couple years ago an inspector insisted on shutting down a heavily used bridge near a mall and businesses and on a route used by thousands to get from point A to point B. Said it was unsafe, in danger of imminent collapse, not even safe to walk on. People SCREAMED! Oh my god - what about the businesses, the people who had to get to work, didn’t he knew what would happen to the mall and that’s _vital_ business and income and taxes, and where would the truck traffic go and it’s so inconvenient to detour… Well, the local authorities stuck to their guns (despite threats of being voted out of office), the bridge was closed, and the structure completely replaced. There are people who _still_ bitch about what they view as the unnecessary inconvenience. :rolleyes: So yes, there are bridges that need major work and/or replacing. And the can be replaced before a big accident - usually over screaming, frothing-at-the-mouth protests. The bridge I worry about now is the “nine span bridge” over a trainyard in my area - they’ve permanently reduced it from two lanes either direction to one and keep promising it _will_ be replaced… and there are people screaming about that one, too, and lobbying to have it fully reopened to traffic. :rolleyes: People are idiots. Freakin’ idiots. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/31 "2007-08-03T11:22:46Z")
[QUOTE=NinetyWt] Check post #9. [/QUOTE] Actually, I interpreted Dudley Garrett’s post as wondering which specific bridges are deficient. You can try calling your state DOT, you might get someone cool who will send you a spreadsheet or you might have to fill out a FOIA. A lot of people get unnecessarily spooked by the term “structurally deficient”. Please don’t. It’s a classification used for apportionment among the states and for HBP funding eligibility. It does NOT mean the structure is unsafe. We can and do lower the posted load limits when conditions warrant. But sometimes bridges can be structurally deficient, look quite ghastly, and still be able to carry legal loads. And despite what you hear even from people that should know better, it doesn’t necessarily mean the bridge needs urgent repairs. Some bridges in benign environments can have say a deck rated 4 for many years and be perfectly adequate for their use. ---
**Author:** ![Turek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/turek/32/18782_2.png) [@Turek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turek)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/32 "2007-08-03T11:42:28Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] Actually, I interpreted Dudley Garrett’s post as wondering which specific bridges are deficient. You can try calling your state DOT, you might get someone cool who will send you a spreadsheet or you might have to fill out a FOIA. [/QUOTE] Yeah, I keep seeing this statistic quoted > [@](#): > > Last year, at least 73,533 of the nation’s 607,363 bridges, or about 12 percent, were classified as “structurally deficient,” according to the Federal Highway Administration. but I’ve yet to find a list. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/33 "2007-08-03T13:58:38Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] [Moderating] **Dinsdale** , please refrain from political comments such as this in GQ. If you want to comment about Iraq, there are plenty of other places for it. Colibri General Questions Moderator [/QUOTE] Okey dokey. Would it be forum-appropriate, then, for me to observe that our nation’s crumbling infrastructure is not a new problem, yet the powers-that-be have consistently chosen to ignore it to fling money in countless other directions instead. And that in a matter of months if not weeks it will again recede below the consciousness of just about everyone other than a bunch of Minnesotans whose commute will be messed up for some time to come. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/34 "2007-08-03T14:12:26Z")
[QUOTE=Turek] but I’ve yet to find a list. [/QUOTE] I don’t believe FHWA publishes any sort of list. But they could generate one for you based on the NBI data that the states submit to it. Bear in mind if you ever do get one that it is somewhat dynamic and changes as work is done and/or inspection data comes in. If you submitted a FOIA request you’d get what you wanted, though they would have the right to charge you. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/35 "2007-08-03T15:25:20Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] A lot of people get unnecessarily spooked by the term “structurally deficient”. Please don’t. It’s a classification used for apportionment among the states and for HBP funding eligibility. It does NOT mean the structure is unsafe. We can and do lower the posted load limits when conditions warrant. But sometimes bridges can be structurally deficient, look quite ghastly, and still be able to carry legal loads. And despite what you hear even from people that should know better, it doesn’t necessarily mean the bridge needs urgent repairs. Some bridges in benign environments can have say a deck rated 4 for many years and be perfectly adequate for their use. [/QUOTE] Yeah but … small fatigue cracks tell me that that particular area is overstressed by repeated load reversal. Fatigue cracks have sharp points which are stress raisers. It seems to me that knowing that there is an overstressed point that has begun to fail and do nothing is a form of Russian Roulette. And a particularly bad form of that. I spin the cylinder and hand you the gun. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/36 "2007-08-03T20:14:51Z")
The 25% figure seems to be derived from the Bi-Annual [Infrastructure Report Card](http://www.asce.org/reportcard/2005/index.cfm) prepared by the American Society of Civil Engineers. Here’s what they said about bridges in the [2005 Report](http://www.asce.org/reportcard/2005/page.cfm?id=22) : > [@](#): > > Between 2000 and 2003, the percentage of the nation’s 590,750 bridges rated structurally deficient or functionally obsolete decreased slightly from 28.5% to 27.1%. However, it will cost $9.4 billion a year for 20 years to eliminate all bridge deficiencies. Long-term underinvestment is compounded by the lack of a Federal transportation program. > > Conditions > > As of 2003, 27.1% of the nation’s bridges (160,570) were structurally deficient or functionally obsolete, an improvement from 28.5% in 2000. In fact, over the past 12 years, the number of bridge deficiencies has steadily declined from 34.6% in 1992 to 27.1% in 2003. The Federal Highway Administration’s (FHWA’s) strategic plan states that by 2008, less than 25% of the nation’s bridges should be classified as deficient. If that goal were met, 1 in 4 bridges in the nation would still be deficient. There were 590,750 bridges in the United States in 2000; however, one in three urban bridges (31.2% or 43,189) was classified as structurally deficient or functionally obsolete, much higher than the national average. In contrast, 25.6% (118,381) of rural bridges were classified as structurally deficient or functionally obsolete. > > A structurally deficient bridge is closed or restricted to light vehicles because of its deteriorated structural components. While not necessarily unsafe, these bridges must have limits for speed and weight. A functionally obsolete bridge has older design features and, while it is not unsafe for all vehicles, it cannot safely accommodate current traffic volumes, and vehicle sizes and weights. These restrictions not only contribute to traffic congestion, they pose such major inconveniences as school busses or emergency vehicles taking lengthy detours. It is estimated that it will cost $9.4 billion per year for 20 years to eliminate all bridge deficiencies. The annual investment required to prevent the bridge investment backlog from increasing is estimated at $7.3 billion. Present funding trends of state departments of transportation call into question future progress on addressing bridge deficiencies. If you’re interested in your local conditions, the ASCE Report Card breaks it down by state: [Infrastructure by State](http://www.asce.org/reportcard/2005/states.cfm) ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/37 "2007-08-03T20:24:21Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] Actually, I interpreted Dudley Garrett’s post as wondering which specific bridges are deficient. [/QUOTE] D’oh! :smack: Please excuse my thick-headedness, **Dudley**. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/38 "2007-08-03T23:46:56Z")
[QUOTE=Broomstick] snip [/quote] Sounds about right. > [@](#): > > People are idiots. Freakin’ idiots. Yep, and when the bridges collapse, you will hear from those same people about how the bridges were neglected and it is all the gov’ments fault. ---
**Author:** ![DudleyGarrett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DudleyGarrett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DudleyGarrett)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/39 "2007-08-03T23:49:58Z")
[QUOTE=NinetyWt] D’oh! :smack: Please excuse my thick-headedness, **Dudley**. [/QUOTE] No problem. Although your link wasn’t precisely what I was looking for, it was interesting (and puzzling) nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2007, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/40 "2007-08-04T01:34:31Z")
It is not an accident. When taxes are cut ,services and maintenance are cut. The results are predictable. It all results in privatization. I hate to tell you guys the future. Indiana just sold 157 miles of toll road to a Spanish and Australian consortium. [Toll Road Sale: An irrevocable 75 year tax increase - A Citizen's Guide to Indiana](http://www.masson.us/blog/?p=1178) That is the plan. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110.md?page=3)