# Minneapolis Bridge Collapse-harbinger of Things To Come? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 2, 2007, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110 "2007-08-02T11:16:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2007, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/41 "2007-08-04T01:53:03Z")
If interested in trying to combat the problem, one might consider urging your congresspeople to support legislation such as the National Infrastructure Improvement Act, S. 775. According to ASCE, this bill: > [@ASCE](#): > > which was approved this week by the Senate but still must be passed by the House. This bill would establish a National Commission on Infrastructure to study deficiencies and make improvements to maximize economic growth in the United States. Under the measure, the commission would analyze the present condition of various infrastructure systems and report to Congress by 2009 on the capacity of our infrastructure to support the national economy, the age of the systems and possible methods to finance improvements. BTW, > [@ASCE](#): > > ASCE estimates that $1.6 trillion is needed over a five-year period to bring the nation’s infrastructure to a good condition. I apologize if that’s been posted already. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/42 "2007-08-06T03:49:59Z")
MSNBC has put together a [clickable map of deficent bridges](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20093413/) by state, county and location. Click on your state, then at the bottom right of the map where it says “click here to see major state bridges on the list.” That’ll get you to county and city level. ---
**Author:** ![Full\_Metal\_Lotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/df705f/32.png) [@Full\_Metal\_Lotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Full_Metal_Lotus)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/43 "2007-08-06T04:26:01Z")
[QUOTE=Broomstick] I’d just like to add that it can be difficult to get a bridge replaced _before_ a collapse. In my area, like just about every other, we have deteriorating bridges and regular inspections. A couple years ago an inspector insisted on shutting down a heavily used bridge near a mall and businesses and on a route used by thousands to get from point A to point B. Said it was unsafe, in danger of imminent collapse, not even safe to walk on. People SCREAMED! Oh my god - what about the businesses, the people who had to get to work, didn’t he knew what would happen to the mall and that’s _vital_ business and income and taxes, and where would the truck traffic go and it’s so inconvenient to detour… Well, the local authorities stuck to their guns (despite threats of being voted out of office), the bridge was closed, and the structure completely replaced. There are people who _still_ bitch about what they view as the unnecessary inconvenience. :rolleyes: So yes, there are bridges that need major work and/or replacing. And the can be replaced before a big accident - usually over screaming, frothing-at-the-mouth protests. The bridge I worry about now is the “nine span bridge” over a trainyard in my area - they’ve permanently reduced it from two lanes either direction to one and keep promising it _will_ be replaced… and there are people screaming about that one, too, and lobbying to have it fully reopened to traffic. :rolleyes: People are idiots. Freakin’ idiots. [/QUOTE] Those same people who are screaming now about the inconvience will be the ones lining up with lawsuits when it fails/collapses. Regards FML ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/44 "2007-08-06T14:41:00Z")
Guys and Gals and “Other”, this has nothing to do with taxes. I’ve got 10 dollars says there’s plenty of money, if politicians weren’t wasting it on their favorite counties and luring companies away from other politicians’ counties with perks and building ludicrously expensive stadiums. In addition, this bridge had been inspected and while repairs were planned, they had no idea it was about to collapse. And we still don’t even know the cause. I think we all ought to withhold pointing fingers at our favorite whipping boys (except for Pork, which is mine 😃 ) until we actually get, y’know, facts. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/45 "2007-08-06T14:52:52Z")
Yet Minnesota has 1.6 BILLION dollars to spend on a rail system from downtown Minneapolis to downtown St. Paul. The money is there, but they won’t adjust their priorities. Nope, we in MN are in for a new round of WE MUST INCREASE TAXES FAR BEYOND POPULATION GROWTH AND INFLATION NOW! like we just had in the last legislative session (even though we had a 1+ billion dollar surplus). Sigh…I hate sounding like a conservative republican but as I get older I see their point more and more. ☹ oh…let’s not forget the stadium… ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/46 "2007-08-06T15:45:44Z")
[QUOTE=BlinkingDuck] oh…let’s not forget the stadium… [/QUOTE] Was the stadium approved by a vote of the populace or did the politicial leaders approve it all by themselves? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/47 "2007-08-06T15:55:39Z")
My question is; we have a LOT of very OLD bridges in this country-like the brooklyn Bridger (\> 125 years). There is no way that engineers anticipated the loads , when these things were designed. I also wonder if the nature of modern bridge loads (like the vibration caused by s uper-heavy trucks0 is a likely cause of fatigue failure. Finally, I’ve noticed some interesting things: bridges maintained by certain agencies are well kept-take the two traffic bridges over the cape Cod canal. These bridges are both steel arch/suspension types, and were completed in 1935. But they are maintained by the Army Corps of Engineers-and they are in excellent shape-they get sandblasted and repainted every 10 years. Yet some very important bridgees (like the Braga Bridge, Fall River, MA) are literally falling apart! It seems that state highway departments are the worst, in terms of bridge mainarnence. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/48 "2007-08-06T18:44:08Z")
David, I’m not sure. I would guess if it went up to a popular vote it would most likely go down in flames…which means that it isn’t going to happen. All I know is that I knew the damned thing was going to be built and at taxpayer expense. This is Minnesota, the land of 10,000 taxes. Taxes are not allowed not to take effect here. If a tax does go down in a vote, they just have ‘special elections’ every 5 minutes until it passes by a vote of 43-32. You get pretty jaded voting against these things, because you know it will always go through. I still remember the an increase on property taxes. It was voted down. When I got my next property tax statement…there it was. I called the county to find out why they had it on there. It turns out they had 3 special elections…and the 3rd one it passed 43-32 (or something like that). This in a county of over 40,000. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/49 "2007-08-06T18:51:08Z")
I’m trying so hard to stop thinking of the time I was charged sales tax on a tax. It happened several years ago and it still irritates me. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/50 "2007-08-06T18:59:44Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] My question is; we have a LOT of very OLD bridges in this country-like the brooklyn Bridger (\> 125 years). There is no way that engineers anticipated the loads , when these things were designed. [/QUOTE] Our local paper had an interesting piece on that (it’s not archived, sorry). They quoted a structural engineer who explained that when the Brooklyn Bridge was built, nobody knew exactly WHAT they were doing. So, to be safe, they took all their best guesses and _doubled them_. Bridges up until WWII were over-designed and over-built as a result. Then, after WWII, steel prices were quite high. But labor was cheap. And engineers thought they had enough experience to trust their knowledge (nobody knew about metal fatigue). So they designed and built much lighter bridges that relied more heavily on welding. In the late '60s, some bridge or another collapsed and everyone went “oops!” Now they’re back to doing them more conservatively. But the Brooklyn Bridge was specifically cited by the authors as a solid piece of work. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/51 "2007-08-06T19:09:33Z")
[QUOTE=BrandonR] Allow me to translate… Stop before coming to bridge, make sure no one else is coming the opposite way, and proceed to put the pedal to the metal and don’t stop until you’re safely on the other side. 😃 [/QUOTE] According to a report I heard on NPR several _years_ ago, discussing crumbling bridges, they said that this is one of the _worst_ things that you can do, since the faster you go, the harder you “bounce down” on the bridge. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/52 "2007-08-06T19:51:01Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] Was the stadium approved by a vote of the populace or did the politicial leaders approve it all by themselves? [/QUOTE] There was an existing state law that all such localized sales taxes had to be approved by a vote of the people in the affected local area. But the bill specifically exempted the Twins Stadium from that requirement. Because everyone knew that it would never make it by the taxpayers – polls showed it would probably lose by about 60%. Taxpayers don’t see any reason to spend a billion dollars of their money on a stadium for the richest man in the state, who owns the Twins. The Twins team & the Pohlad family vastly increased their political contributions the year this was passed, and got good value for their money. It passed by a single vote. And our “no new taxes” governor somehow decided that doesn’t apply to this new tax, and he signed it into law. (Of course, it doesn’t apply to where he lives.) ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/53 "2007-08-06T20:02:12Z")
[QUOTE=BlinkingDuck] I’m trying so hard to stop thinking of the time I was charged sales tax on a tax. It happened several years ago and it still irritates me. 🙂 [/QUOTE] You should have complained to the authorities about that business that cheated you. Because this is not a correct application of the Mn Sales & Use Tax. And it’s very likely that the extra 6% they charged you went into their pocket, instead of being sent to the state. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/54 "2007-08-06T21:06:59Z")
> [@](#): > > You should have complained to the authorities about that business that cheated you. It was the county government. I was installing an underground sprinkler system. I was told I needed a permit. I went to the county and asked what I was ‘buying’ with this permit. I was told that no services were provided. No inspections, nothing. However, I was required by the county government to pay this fee. Therefore, any reasonable person would think of this as a ‘tax’. I was then charged sales tax on this fee. It’s a little thing…but for some reason it just gripes me…and things usually fall off my back easily. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/55 "2007-08-06T22:09:53Z")
[QUOTE=t-bonham@scc.net] There was an existing state law that all such localized sales taxes had to be approved by a vote of the people in the affected local area. But the bill specifically exempted the Twins Stadium from that requirement. Because everyone knew that it would never make it by the taxpayers – polls showed it would probably lose by about 60%. Taxpayers don’t see any reason to spend a billion dollars of their money on a stadium for the richest man in the state, who owns the Twins. The Twins team & the Pohlad family vastly increased their political contributions the year this was passed, and got good value for their money. It passed by a single vote. And our “no new taxes” governor somehow decided that doesn’t apply to this new tax, and he signed it into law. (Of course, it doesn’t apply to where he lives.) [/QUOTE] Bad scene. Presumeably those who wrote the exemption into the law and the local politicians who rammed through the stadium will be up for reelection. It is to be hoped that happens before people forget. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/56 "2007-08-06T22:23:12Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] Bad scene. Presumeably those who wrote the exemption into the law and the local politicians who rammed through the stadium will be up for reelection. It is to be hoped that happens before people forget. [/QUOTE] Actually, the Senator who cast the deciding vote on this was able to retire that year. And it wasn’t _local_ politicians. The bill was passed mainly by outstate Republican votes, but the tax is applied to Hennepin County (Minneapolis), an urban, Democratic area. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2007, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/57 "2007-08-07T03:38:08Z")
Yeah, I hate civilization too. Just got back from trying to take a gander at the bitchin’ carnage from the Stone Arch Bridge. I wound up being more interested in the placards detailing the history of the Minneapolis milling district. ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2007, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110/58 "2007-08-08T13:02:46Z")
Here’s a [blog with some amazing photographs](http://www.conphoto.net/collapse.html), it looks like he took them before the police even got there. The photographer’s a foafoaf. Thought you engineers might find the pictures interesting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-bridge-collapse-harbinger-of-things-to-come/414110.md?page=2)