# Minneapolis to Disband Police Dept. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 8, 2020, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247 "2020-06-08T14:04:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/1 "2020-06-08T14:04:30Z")
[\*\* Minneapolis lawmakers vow to disband police department in historic move. \*\*](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/07/minneapolis-city-council-defund-police-george-floyd) It remains to be seen if this is just political showmanship or whether it is actually going to happen. Assuming the latter for the sake of debate, what “alternative model” of law enforcement can one possibly have to enforce the law? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/2 "2020-06-08T14:14:04Z")
They should use Camden NJ as a model – Camden NJ disbanded their PD in 2013, and built a new department from the ground up, and it’s been extremely succesful: [https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crime-in-camden/549542/](https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crime-in-camden/549542/) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/3 "2020-06-08T14:15:02Z")
Other places have tried this. They don’t literally have no cops; it’s a way of reducing and reforming the police department. There ill be police officers in Minneapolis, but fewer of them, doing things cops specifically should be doing. Cops are overused, and most cities have too many of them. They are reflexively sent to deal with things that really should be dealt with by other types of professionals. You need detectives to investigate major crimes and traffic cops to stop dangerous drivers, but do you really need armed cops sent to do wellness checks? To respond to medical emergencies? To be enforcers in high schools? ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/4 "2020-06-08T14:20:17Z")
I kind of roll my eyes when I hear the word “disband”, but I guess they’re just trying to emphasize their commitment to a radical redesign. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/5 "2020-06-08T14:33:46Z")
Cue right-wing OUTRAGE! ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/6 "2020-06-08T14:44:18Z")
> [@](#): > > In 2013, the Camden Police Department was disbanded, reimagined, and born again as the Camden County Police Department, with more officers at lower pay—and a strategic shift toward “community policing.” Is that what people have in mind when they talk about “defund the police”? Could it also be tried with, say, failing public schools?:dubious: Anyway community policing sounds like a perfectly reasonable idea though I would like to see statistically rigorous evidence that it actually decreases crime. Abolish/Defund the police are still terrible slogans and a pure gift for the Republicans who are jumping all over it. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/7 "2020-06-08T14:52:38Z")
Actually I am wondering if some mayors and governors might use this crisis as a financial play, to put pressure on police unions and maybe disband some departments and hire officers at a lower pay like Camden. In some ways it’s like a private equity firm taking over a company. Hell now that Mitt Romney has gone all woke and marched with BLM, they might hire him as a consultant.😃 ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/8 "2020-06-08T14:57:40Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > Is that what people have in mind when they talk about “defund the police”? Could it also be tried with, say, failing public schools?:dubious: > > Anyway community policing sounds like a perfectly reasonable idea though I would like to see statistically rigorous evidence that it actually decreases crime. > > **Abolish/Defund the police are still terrible slogans and a pure gift for the Republicans who are jumping all over it.** Anything other than the status quo would have Republicans jumping all over/distorting the fucking hell out of it no matter what it’s called. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/9 "2020-06-08T15:10:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Lantern** : > > Is that what people have in mind when they talk about “defund the police”? Could it also be tried with, say, failing public schools? What, scrapping the whole current system and starting from scratch? I’ve been saying for a while that that’s the only hope for fixing the Cleveland Public Schools. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/10 "2020-06-08T15:14:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > They should use Camden NJ as a model – Camden NJ disbanded their PD in 2013, and built a new department from the ground up, and it’s been extremely succesful: > > [Bloomberg - Are you a robot?](https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crime-in-camden/549542/) As I understand it, the purpose of the Camden model was to increase the number of police officers while reducing salary/benefits (to accommodate the new hires in the budget). What they did was dissolve the police force, create a new one, immediately rehire almost all of the police officers at lower salaries, and hire something like 100 new officers. In the immediate aftermath, people felt like the increased police presence (made possible by the increased number of police) was helping the crime rate. [See here](https://www.governing.com/topics/public-justice-safety/gov-camden-disbands-police-force-for-new-department.html) for a 2014 discussion of the Camden situation. Your cite, similarly, credits “more officers with lower pay”. It may be the case that increased police presence reduces crime rates. And it may be the case that a surplus of police officers allows each officer to take the time to build community relationships. But I am surprised to learn that “disband/defund the police department” might plausibly be viewed as a call for a department to increase the size of the police force (and keep all the current officers) by giving them lower pay and fewer benefits. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/11 "2020-06-08T15:27:24Z")
> **[Why Camden, N.J., the Murder Capital of the Country, Disbanded Its Police Force](https://www.governing.com/archive/gov-camden-disbands-police-force-for-new-department.html)** > > In hopes of reducing the city's high crime rate, Camden, N.J., made a controversial and unprecedented move a year ago to replace its police force. The Camden model looks interesting though I am pretty sure it’s not what left-wing activists actually want. > [@](#): > > On May 1, 2013, Camden laid off its entire force and the county took over. The city paid the county $62 million for operational costs and leased its police administration building for $1. Critics decried the reorganization as nothing more than union busting. By laying off the officers and rehiring them as county employees, Camden was able to slash officer pay and cut benefits roughly in half. In all, average per officer costs were trimmed from $182,168 to $99,605, according to county figures. > > With those savings, the department, which has since unionized, hired scores of new officers while keeping overall costs about the same. An analysis of police employment data indicates that in the course of a year, Camden has gone from a bare-bones force to having at or near the highest police presence of any larger U.S. city on a per capita basis. > [@](#): > > For Camden residents, the influx of additional police has taken some getting used to. Officers are making more traffic stops and issuing tickets for minor violations, such as tinted windows and obstructed license plates. They’re citing bicyclists for failing to have a bell or other audible device on their bikes. Even pastor King expressed frustration over being pulled over five times within a month for, among other things, driving with a broken headlight during the day. Many locals view the citations, which they say were never before enforced, as harassment. Police, however, say the city’s most egregious offenders also commit these types of minor violations. Armed robbery suspects, for instance, often drive cars with tinted windows. Drug dealers deploy lookouts on bikes. “We are going to leverage every legal option that we have to deter their criminal activity,” says Thomson. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/12 "2020-06-08T15:48:01Z")
Mrs. L and I visited Philadelphia as tourists at Thanksgiving 2018. We weren’t sure how rough the streets were going to be but we felt remarkably safe the whole time. Reason: there were plenty of police around. It wasn’t like squads massing for a riot that’s about to break out; they were visible, friendly, and it was reassuring. Mrs. L tried to give some of them $5 gift cards to Dunkin’ so they could get a coffee (man, it was COLD outside!) but they said they couldn’t accept them. IDK if they were imitating their neighbors in Camden, but we loved our time there. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/13 "2020-06-08T15:49:06Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Other places have tried this. They don’t literally have no cops; it’s a way of reducing and reforming the police department. There ill be police officers in Minneapolis, but fewer of them, doing things cops specifically should be doing. > > Cops are overused, and most cities have too many of them. They are reflexively sent to deal with things that really should be dealt with by other types of professionals. You need detectives to investigate major crimes and traffic cops to stop dangerous drivers, but do you really need armed cops sent to do wellness checks? To respond to medical emergencies? To be enforcers in high schools? Every problem in the US seems to have the police as a solution. Police departments have essentially asserted themselves not as agencies that are accountable to the public but rather that they are more like local militias. Through police unions, they have argued that their number one job is to come home alive, and that we should accept that accidentally killing people in custody or bystanders or people who share a residence is just unavoidable collateral damage. Mayors, city councils, state legislatures, federal investigators, and other parties have lacked the political will to rectify the problem of police misconduct. It just might be time to use the nuclear option and for people to fire the whole fucking department and rebuild a new police force that operates according to new principles. Good institutions should be supported, damaged institutions need to be reformed, and completely damaged and harmful institutions need to be completely razed and rebuilt from the ground up. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/14 "2020-06-08T15:50:15Z")
PR stunt to make headlines. **iiandyiiii** , Camden, shouldn’t be the model. It will be interesting to see what Minneapolis actually does. With a population of a half million, in a metro area of over 3 million, if they truly have no police department, chaos will ensue. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/15 "2020-06-08T15:57:26Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > I kind of roll my eyes when I hear the word “disband” When I hear the word “disband” it makes me think of the classic _Simpsons_ epsiode [“The PTA Disbands!”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_PTA_Disbands!) > [@](#): > > Despite the title of the episode, at no point does the PTA (Parent-Teacher Association) actually disband. The title was suggested by Mirkin and was intended to poke fun at Crittenden, who thought the most exciting part of the teachers going on strike would be that the PTA might disband. In addition to this, Mirkin added a character to the episode who, on thinking the PTA has disbanded, jumps panicking out of a window. He jumps back in the same window when he is told the PTA has not disbanded. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/16 "2020-06-08T16:01:36Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > I kind of roll my eyes when I hear the word “disband”, but I guess they’re just trying to emphasize their commitment to a radical redesign. It’s atrocious messaging. Terrific idea, awful sales job. It’s akin to selling soft drinks with ads saying “Drink acid!” ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/17 "2020-06-08T16:03:34Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > PR stunt to make headlines. > > **iiandyiiii** , Camden, shouldn’t be the model. > > It will be interesting to see what Minneapolis actually does. With a population of a half million, in a metro area of over 3 million, if they truly have no police department, chaos will ensue. They’re not going to have NO police department; they’re going to disband it and reform it in a way that will make it more accountable to the public. Yes, I’m sure that some officers who are used to policing however the fuck they please are going to be incensed, but if it’s done right, there’s an opportunity for some positive change. Throwing people in jail doesn’t reduce crime over the long term. We’re at the point where even the most right wing of red state governors are actually the ones championing the reforms in this area. In a similar vein, law enforcement departments that aggressively police their communities instead of actually cooperating with them are not helping to improve their communities. As we’ve seen, even if we take at face value the idea that there are statistical reductions in crime, they are building up resentments that don’t appear in the data - and those resentments eventually explode into the open, which is what we’ve seen over the last two weeks. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/18 "2020-06-08T17:08:28Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > But I am surprised to learn that “disband/defund the police department” might plausibly be viewed as a call for a department to increase the size of the police force (and keep all the current officers) by giving them lower pay and fewer benefits. I. too. Perhaps they are referring to how much the chief and his pals made. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/19 "2020-06-08T17:09:52Z")
What they should be saying is disband the police union. That is what worked in Camden. So many benefits, it would make it easier to get rid of bad cops, it makes it possible to hire cops at a lower salary so you can have more, and it saves the city money. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/20 "2020-06-08T17:10:15Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Throwing people in jail doesn’t reduce crime over the long term. Misplaced responsibility. The police department doesn’t determine when people are put in jail or prison. It is the prosecutors office and judges. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247.md?page=2)