# Minneapolis to Disband Police Dept. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 8, 2020, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247 "2020-06-08T14:04:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/21 "2020-06-08T17:51:47Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > What they should be saying is disband the police union. That is what worked in Camden. So many benefits, it would make it easier to get rid of bad cops, it makes it possible to hire cops at a lower salary so you can have more, and it saves the city money. My impression is that it’s not unions that make it hard to get rid of bad cops, but police culture in general. Because when we say “bad cops” we’re not talking about people who are mediocre performers at their jobs, but rather people who behave in criminal ways (and those who cover for them). This is not a story about Joe worker who lazes around half the time who management wants to get rid of but can’t because of the Evil Union. This is the story of Joe worker who beats people up on the job, and who management and the rest of his coworkers insist is just doing his best. Racist policing is not a union issue. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/22 "2020-06-08T18:08:50Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > Mrs. L and I visited Philadelphia as tourists at Thanksgiving 2018. We weren’t sure how rough the streets were going to be but we felt remarkably safe the whole time. Reason: there were plenty of police around. It wasn’t like squads massing for a riot that’s about to break out; they were visible, friendly, and it was reassuring. Mrs. L tried to give some of them $5 gift cards to Dunkin’ so they could get a coffee (man, it was COLD outside!) but they said they couldn’t accept them. IDK if they were imitating their neighbors in Camden, but we loved our time there. And do you imagine that there were all sorts of rapists and robbers just peering out from behind their windows, thinking, “I can’t wait 'till those coppers go home so I can start mugging and raping all over Philadelphia!!” ? Or, to put it more benignly, there’s a difference between “feeling safe” and “being safe”, and there’s no reason to believe that they go hand in hand. Also, what cost to others is worth it for you to “feel safe”? Are you black? I wonder whether a black visitor or resident might be more likely to feel more or less safe with plenty of police around. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/23 "2020-06-08T18:15:01Z")
What was the old Seinfeld bit about cops that aren’t doing anything to pick up a broom and start sweeping up the streets. I like the idea, might make them a little more humble. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/24 "2020-06-08T18:20:28Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > Is that what people have in mind when they talk about “defund the police”? Could it also be tried with, say, failing public schools?:dubious: > … They did exactly this with bad public schools in NYC. The high school I went to in Queens was shut down, and two or three new “schools” were opened in the same building, with new, more junior teachers. Each school has its own mission, I think – like two small magnet schools rather than one local school. I have no idea how it’s working out. Anyway, you can lower your dubious eyebrow now. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/25 "2020-06-08T18:22:17Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > And do you imagine that there were all sorts of rapists and robbers just peering out from behind their windows, thinking, “I can’t wait 'till those coppers go home so I can start mugging and raping all over Philadelphia!!” ? > > Or, to put it more benignly, there’s a difference between “feeling safe” and “being safe”, and there’s no reason to believe that they go hand in hand. > > Also, what cost to others is worth it for you to “feel safe”? Are you black? I wonder whether a black visitor or resident might be more likely to feel more or less safe with plenty of police around. Just offering a data point. Interpret it as you see fit. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/26 "2020-06-08T18:32:16Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Anything other than the status quo would have Republicans jumping all over/distorting the fucking hell out of it no matter what it’s called. Exactly correct. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/27 "2020-06-08T18:41:42Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > My impression is that it’s not unions that make it hard to get rid of bad cops, but police culture in general. > > Because when we say “bad cops” we’re not talking about people who are mediocre performers at their jobs, but rather people who behave in criminal ways (and those who cover for them). This is not a story about Joe worker who lazes around half the time who management wants to get rid of but can’t because of the Evil Union. This is the story of Joe worker who beats people up on the job, and who management and the rest of his coworkers insist is just doing his best. > > Racist policing is not a union issue. In the beginning of May, [the Chicago Police Union elected a new president](https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-fop-catanzara-elected-20200509-tt2lmao5fjepbpnoopgftgiyta-story.html), who is currently suspended. > [@](#): > > Catanzara has a lengthy history of complaints filed against him in his 25 years as a Chicago cop. Records obtained by the Tribune show he had at least 35 complaints against him through mid-2017, many for personnel violations. He’s also been suspended several times in his career, and past superintendents have tried twice to fire him. Boy, does this sound tone-deaf under the current crisis. Wonder how the vote would go if taken today. Racist policing may not be an union issue, but the union certainly protects the bad cops (and those who cover for them). ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/28 "2020-06-08T19:07:56Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > They did exactly this with bad public schools in NYC. The high school I went to in Queens was shut down, and two or three new “schools” were opened in the same building, with new, more junior teachers. Each school has its own mission, I think – like two small magnet schools rather than one local school. I have no idea how it’s working out. > > Anyway, you can lower your dubious eyebrow now. The dubious eyebrow was more about whether pro-Camden leftists really knew what they were getting into.The more I read about the Camden police reorganization the more I like it. I am not an anti-union fanatic but if a police department or school is failing, disbanding it and renegotiating contracts seems a reasonable option. Cities are going to be under huge financial pressure and if these protests makes it politically easier to take on police unions something good would have come out of them. BTW we haven’t talked about the use of technology in Camden: > [@](#): > > As part of the new department, the county has also implemented some state-of-the-art technological advancements. Inside its Real Time Tactical Operation Intelligence Center, analysts pore over monitors displaying surveillance cameras throughout the city. On a recent afternoon, one analyst conducting a “virtual patrol” moved from camera to camera, zeroing in on possible drug activity at Fourth and Vine streets. The department’s monitoring system displays locations of police cruisers, cameras, calls and reports of gunshots all on a single integrated map. Outside, shot sensors and more than 120 cameras now blanket the city. For a bird’s-eye view of an area, police can deploy Sky Patrol, a mobile observation tower that extends 40 feet high. They’ve also equipped some police cruisers with license plate readers that alert officers if known offenders are nearby. Again interesting and impressive but I suspect that this is not what leftists are thinking of. Anyway this thread has completely turned my opinion on the issue of disbanding police departments. If it is politically feasible and along the lines of the Camden model, it should definitely be looked at. I still think that abolish/defund/disband the police is a terrible slogan. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/29 "2020-06-08T19:13:08Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Misplaced responsibility. The police department doesn’t determine when people are put in jail or prison. It is the prosecutors office and judges. They are part of the problem, yes, but it’s police departments who are the face of power in this country. They are the ones who pull people over for a busted tail light. They are the ones actually putting people in jail over having an expired license or insurance certificate, or loitering, or vagrancy, or possessing small amounts of marijuana. I absolutely agree that discussions about policing communities needs to go beyond police conduct and also address the parties that tacitly encourage police aggression. BLM and other protesters aren’t just reacting to George Floyd’s death; they’re protesting persistent systemic injustice in all its forms. As it regards police departments, they don’t have to enforce all laws all the time. If they did, jails would be full. They need to be part of the community, not behaving like an occupying army. Veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan can tell you what happens when you behave like an occupying army - it makes it a hell of a lot more dangerous for the boots on the ground. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/30 "2020-06-08T19:59:12Z")
Progressives blaming public sector unions?!? What alternative universe have I fallen into? It’ll be interesting to see how all this plays out it’s unpredictable at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/31 "2020-06-08T20:18:48Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > **Progressives blaming public sector unions**?!? What alternative universe have I fallen into? > > It’ll be interesting to see how all this plays out it’s unpredictable at the moment. Unlike conservatives, we can recognize problems and try to fix them. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/32 "2020-06-08T20:23:43Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Progressives blaming public sector unions?!? What alternative universe have I fallen into? It’s always funny when a conservative sees liberals doing something that his beliefs tell him liberals don’t do. The usual conclusion is “there must be something wrong with those liberals” and not “there must be something wrong with my beliefs”. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/33 "2020-06-08T20:24:48Z")
Another example of a complete police re-org was the abolition of the Royal Ulster Constabulary as part of the Good Friday Accord. The RUC was seen as a Protestant organization, with links to the loyalist para-militaries. It was disbanded and replaced with the Police Service of Northern Ireland, which was consciously modelled to be as representative as possible of the different communities it serves. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/34 "2020-06-08T21:29:58Z")
It happens in small towns. I know a small town in Missouri that was having a problem with meth and the mayor fired the police chief and hired a new one who reformed the department and they cleaned up the meth problem. Often a new county sheriff will do this also. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2020, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/35 "2020-06-09T01:16:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > They should use Camden NJ as a model – Camden NJ disbanded their PD in 2013, and built a new department from the ground up, and it’s been extremely succesful: > > [Bloomberg - Are you a robot?](https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crime-in-camden/549542/) As i said in the other thread, how can anyone justify the terms “abolition” “defunding” or even “disbanding” the police when immediately after doing so, you create another organization with the term “police” in its name and rehire the very same people only now without a union? Was it “defunding” or union busting? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2020, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/36 "2020-06-09T01:50:23Z")
Many American police departments have been disestablished and replaced over the centuries. Review for example the agencies that preceded the NYPD. In this situation, it seems the model is Camden New Jersey. The situation in Camden was bad. The police were both ineffective and brutal. "Bad Apples"were protected by the station house culture and a strong union. So in 2011, the government disbanded the Camden city police. At the same time they established the [Camden County Police Department.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camden_County_Police_Department) The new department allowed the officers of the old department to apply, but had no obligation to hire the worst of them. In one fell swoop a lot of the problems of the old entrenched way of doing business were swept away. So as I understand it (and correct me if I am wrong) the idea is the the Minneapolis Police Department is well passed saving and it is time to start again with a clean slate. Seems like a good thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2020, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/37 "2020-06-09T02:24:38Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > As i said in the other thread, how can anyone justify the terms “abolition” “defunding” or even “disbanding” the police when immediately after doing so, you create another organization with the term “police” in its name and rehire the very same people only now without a union? > > Was it “defunding” or union busting? I agree. Intelligent people think that means get rid of the cops, while it means firing the guys who like to kick ass, and hiring guys who want to work for the Peace Corps. This is a[policeman.](https://www.pinterest.com/pin/176133035398639275/) These are [assholes](https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-marijuana-arrest-brooklyn-attack-20200305-qjjyknboyfcqjpd4kvus7ptcuq-story.html). ---
**Author:** ![Mcmechanic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@Mcmechanic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mcmechanic)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2020, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/38 "2020-06-09T04:31:42Z")
Cops don’t vote for Democrats atm anyway,so no risk if Democrats defund them. They’re a lost demographic anyway, let them loose support and make up for the minuscule votes elsewhere. And when their wages and benefits plummet? Sucks to be dicks ---
**Author:** ![Mcmechanic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@Mcmechanic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mcmechanic)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2020, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/39 "2020-06-09T04:46:10Z")
The union leaders should be honest and admit since the rank and file vote for republicans, than, it’s their fault they are losing support 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2020, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247/40 "2020-06-09T04:48:27Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > As i said in the other thread, how can anyone justify the terms “abolition” “defunding” or even “disbanding” the police when immediately after doing so, you create another organization with the term “police” in its name and rehire the very same people only now without a union? > > Was it “defunding” or union busting? To be honest I’m with you here, surprisingly. This is not what most people I’ve talked to actually running protests and the like have in mind by the slogan. And the Camden model is absolutely **not** what is intended (for one, virtual patrols over widespread surveillance is definitely not intended considering the intent is also to lessen the enforcement of petty crimes since they disproportionately cause arrests for BIPOC). It seems more like just police union busting. (Note: I don’t think police belong in the labor movement for a variety of reasons and a lot of unions I know are trying to get the AFL-CIO or other parent unions to kick out police unions, especially since police are the first called in the break strikes). Anyway, the main competition to policing is Community Accountability and Transformative Justice practices. The goals of transformative justice are: > [@Generation FIVE](#): > > 1. Survivor safety, healing, and agency > 2. Accountability and transformation of those who abuse or cause harm > 3. Community response and accountability > 4. Transformation of the community and social conditions that create and perpetuate > violence — systems of oppression, exploitation, domination, and state violence Community accountability is a framework under which transformative justice happens where individual communities (churches, neighborhoods, schools, etc) put the needs of a survivor or victim of crime first and give them what they need to heal, while **also** giving the perpetrator the help they need to change themselves (e.g. mental health support, trauma counseling and many other things). It’s also comprehensive social restructuring in communities to get rid of the conditions that cause crime in the first place - not much reason to steal from the local supermarket when you’re guaranteed food and a place to live, for instance. Note that this doesn’t propose a single agency you plop in the place of the police that handles everything labelled “crime” right now. There’s no community accountability process to handle going 55 in a 45 zone. Instead it’s talking about forwarding various crimes to different, specialized mediators and handlers in the community who can facilitate a harm for that specific problem. There’s no uniform solution for every existing crime or community, but that’s the generally “shape” of the proposal. There’s a book I highly recommend called Fumbling Towards Repair by Mariame Kaba and Shira that gives a **lot** of concrete details about how this looks, and very practical advice from people who have been doing TJ/CA facilitation and work for years (though it almost exclusively focuses on sexual violence work, with is a bit restrictive when talking about how to handle, e.g., murder and such), but I want to start with quoting two of their sections on common challenges to the idea, because that’s always the first thing that comes up: > [@](#): > > **What about rapists?** > > **Most sexual assaults happen between people who know each other–not at the hands of the stranger serial rapists portrayed on TV.** > > Most sexual assaults are not reported, and most people who engage in sexual assault are not in prison, so ending prisons will not flood society with predators. Further, the power given to law enforcement agents, and the situations created by imprisoning people, produce high rates of sexual assault. > > Policing/prison is a source of sexual assault and not a solution. Because of the high rate of sexual violence in prisons, we are essentially sentencing people to judicial rape when we incarcerate them. > > **Bottom line** : There are some rapists in prison, more rapists outside of prison. The prison is not a way to stop rape; the prison is the rapist. In addition, I’ll say that as a rape victim, a lot of people don’t report their rape because they **don’t** want the severe consequences for their rapist. A lot of people love their rapist, and have complex feelings about them. They may be very hurt, and need to not see the person again (or some people remain friends), and want to be able to heal and have their rapist become a better person, and not want to sentence them to years in prison and have a forever-standing red mark that bars them from a lot of employment. It provides more space for survivors to get what they need. > [@](#): > > **What about murderers?** > > **Most people murder people they know well, often as part of complex family and relationship violence dynamics.** TV makes us think prisons are full of murderers who would go on killing sprees if released. That is an inaccurate portrayal both of how violence most commonly happens and of who is in prison right now. What we know is that the people who commit murders are actually the LEAST likely to repeat their crime. > > They have the lowest recidivism rates. Prisons kill people through medical neglect and nutritional deprivation. Police murder people of color with impunity. > > **Bottom line** : Prisons and policing do not stop murder; the prisons and police are the murderers. In short: the current criminal justice system has a tendency to create the very problems it justifies itself as solving, and restructuring the police to other entities more naturally handles various societal ills. Does that mean complete police and prison abolition? We can squabble about individual instances and hypotheticals here and there, but I think the broader point remains that in many and most cases, crimes are either not adequately handled by the police or would be better handled by other agencies with specific training. And almost never in the current system is the root cause of the crime handled (e.g. poverty or trauma), nor are the needs of the victim considered. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minneapolis-to-disband-police-dept/855247.md?page=3)