# Minnesota becomes a Shall Issue state. Your comments? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 29, 2003, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166 "2003-05-29T01:52:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![labdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5fc32e/32.png) [@labdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/labdude)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/41 "2003-05-29T17:50:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*I think it’s pretty scary to know that anywhere I now, I’m going to have to worry about a bunch of moronic would-be Clint Eastwoods packing heat. \*\* We have had the law here (louisiana) for years. It’s really a non-issue. No problems, or shoot outs. Only law abiding citizens can get a permit, criminal never needed a permit to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/42 "2003-05-29T17:51:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Huerta88 \* > \*\*As we don’t live in a world where perfect moral deserts are served, though, there’s some argument that individual citizens bear practical responsibility for evaluating situations and risks and taking reasonable and available precautions against (concededly unfair and unjustified risks). > > * * * > > I’ll leave it to the moral theologians whether failure to take a readily available countermeasure that clearly would have averted (I’m not saying this is factually true of gun ownership vis a vis rape, etc., but consider it as a hypothetical) your experiencing a Bad Thing **also** makes you “to blame” for your misfortune. > \*\* Some scholars do go further, and come close to arguing that there is a moral and civic **duty** to cultivate character and self-reliance by arming oneself. An outlier view, perhaps, but one that appears to have been not-alien to some of the Founding Fathers, who were influenced by writers who “considered the bearing of arms to be the primary means by which individuals affirmed their social power and political participation as responsible moral agents.” See [http://www.guncite.com/journals/burframe.html#h1.2-15](http://www.guncite.com/journals/burframe.html#h1.2-15), text accompanying FNs 76-78. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/43 "2003-05-29T17:54:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*There is no constutional right to own a gun. The 2nd amendment refers onl to militias…well _regulated_ militias. \*\* To bad they didn’t add any qualifers to that. Like maybe something about the the right of the “people” or something. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/44 "2003-05-29T18:02:39Z")
Well, I hope there is a right NOT to own a gun. For the record, I really don’t feel strongly one way or the other about guns-I respect the ideas that Cecil put forth, and that law abiding citizens owning guns isn’t a problem. When it gets personal, however, I myself would NOT feel comfortable owning one, and would probably be safer without one-because I don’t know if I could use it properly. I don’t think everyone needs a gun-and that’s okay. So I really don’t have a beef with guns or anything-it’s not something I spend a lot of time thinking about. I just get upset at the idea that those who don’t arm themselves are somehow wimps or are more at risk. No one said that outright, but **Susanann** came pretty close to suggesting that if a woman carrying a gun doesn’t get raped, then somehow, if a woman didn’t carry a gun and DID get raped, it’s something that she caused. I do think that gun owning should be regulated-d’uh, someone shouldn’t be able to buy a big ass machine gun or whatever five minutes after getting out of prison. Or be able to ring in the New Year by firing a big bazooka in the air! But I don’t really have a problem with responsible gun owners. As long as they don’t start telling me I have to own a gun. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/45 "2003-05-29T18:18:13Z")
**Diogenes the Cynic** is ignorant about his own state. Minnesota always had concealed carry. It just wasn’t a “shall issue” state, which means folks had to jump through some hoops to get a permit, that’s all. Lots of people have been in his presence with a concealed weapon and he never knew it. That’s the point of concealing it! I know several people in MN who had permits. Not easy to get but not impossible. All but, what, 6 states, have concealed carry, and a majority of them are shall isue states. No gunfights at the O.K., no streets flowing with blood. Nothing. Diogenes the Cynic, your fears are silly. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/46 "2003-05-29T18:51:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\* > When it gets personal, however, I myself would NOT feel comfortable owning one, and would probably be safer without one-because I don’t know if I could use it properly. I don’t think everyone needs a gun-and that’s okay. > > I just get upset at the idea that those who don’t arm themselves are somehow wimps or are more at risk. No one said that outright, but **Susanann** came pretty close to suggesting that if a woman carrying a gun doesn’t get raped, then somehow, if a woman didn’t carry a gun and DID get raped, it’s something that she caused. > > But I don’t really have a problem with responsible gun owners. As long as they don’t start telling me I have to own a gun. \*\* I pretty much agree with you on your main points. I am very PRO-CHOICE on this issue. I leave it up to each individual to decide if they want a gun or not. I most certainly do not advocate anyone who does not want one to have one, or carry one. I strongly support you that you would not feel confortable with one, and I agree that you would be safer without one since you cant even operate one. I am not blaming or accusing unarmed women who have been victims of violent crime of anything. The way they live life is their choice. I have no opinion nor make any moral theologies about those who do not take “practical responsibility for evaluating situations and risks” or “moral duties or countermeasures”. You and others can make them. I believe the “total responsibility” for violent crime is laid soley upon the criminal. I dont care if a woman is walking alone down a dark alley at night in a mini-skirt and high heels - if something bad happens to her, the TOTAL!!! blame is on the criminal, not the woman. My earlier comments were strictly directed to women who arm themselves. I am referring to fellow women of the Second Amendment Sisters. I am only concerned about already armed women who feel safer doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/47 "2003-05-29T19:12:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*“Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not after you.” > > - Kurt Cobain \*\* Perhaps my memory is failing me, but the person Kurt Cobain should have worried most about seems to have been the person looking at him in the mirror each morning. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/48 "2003-05-29T19:25:50Z")
I just hope that the people who do choose to to carry will learn how to properly use their weapons first. I wouldn’t be averse to a licensing process which would require a safety and proficiency test before anyone is allowed to own a handgun. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/49 "2003-05-29T19:41:23Z")
In all of Pennsylvania, except Philadelphia, the county sheriff’s department is responsible for issuing a License to Carry Concealed Firearms. In Philadelphia, the chief of police handles that duty. I was advised when applying for my license, which is good state-wide, it’s harder to get one in Philadelphia than in any other area of the state. The gun laws in Philadelphia are stricter than those of the rest of the state, much like in New York where it is possible (although not easy) to get a CCW in much of the state, but nearly impossible for an average citizen to do in NYC. Remembering that correlation does not always indicate causation, I still find it ironic that in Philadelphia, with the toughest gun laws in PA, the crime rate is higher than anywhere else in the commonwealth. P.S. **Guin** , it’s totally OK with me that you don’t want to carry a gun because you don’t feel comfortable with it. It’d be 100% a bad idea for you to carry a gun you’re not comfortable with, because that’s more dangerous than being unarmed. Thing is, the bad guys don’t know you’re not carrying and I am. All they know is that either of us _could be_. If the fear of guessing wrong deters the crime, then the concealed carry had its desired effect. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/50 "2003-05-29T20:00:17Z")
I _really_ don’t think that there’s any empirical evidence to suggest that would be criminals take conceald carry laws into account before they commit a crime. I find that rather dubious. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/51 "2003-05-29T20:16:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > I just hope that the people who do choose to to carry will learn how to properly use their weapons first. I wouldn’t be averse to a licensing process which would require a safety and proficiency test before anyone is allowed to own a handgun. > [@](#): > > 15.30 Subd. 2a. [TRAINING IN THE SAFE USE OF A PISTOL.] (a) An > 15.31 applicant must present evidence that the applicant received > 15.32 training in the safe use of a pistol within one year of the date > 15.33 of an original or renewal application. Training may be > 15.34 demonstrated by: > 15.35 (1) employment as a peace officer in the state of Minnesota > 15.36 within the past year; or > 16.1 (2) completion of a firearms safety or training course > 16.2 providing basic training in the safe use of a pistol and > 16.3 conducted by a certified instructor. > 16.4 (b) Basic training must include: > 16.5 (1) instruction in the fundamentals of pistol use; > 16.6 (2) successful completion of an actual shooting > 16.7 qualification exercise; and > 16.8 (3) instruction in the fundamental legal aspects of pistol > 16.9 possession, carry, and use, including self-defense and the > 16.10 restrictions on the use of deadly force. [S.F No. 842, 2nd Engrossment: 83rd Legislative Session (2003-2004)](http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/cgi-bin/getbill.pl?session=ls83&version=latest&number=SF842&session_number=0&session_year=2003) ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/52 "2003-05-29T20:25:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*I _really_ don’t think that there’s any empirical evidence to suggest that would be criminals take conceald carry laws into account before they commit a crime. I find that rather dubious. :dubious: \*\* [http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/lott.pdf](http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/lott.pdf) See FN 12 and accompanying text. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/53 "2003-05-29T20:33:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BF \* > \*\*Before everyone piles on DtC and hijacks this thread, check out what [Cecil](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_123.html) wrote about it. There are a plethora of threads in GD discussing this very thing, IMHO, let it go… \*\* Cecil. Well, to be honest, it wasn’t a fair question. You see, there really ISN’T a Straight Dope to be issued on the subject. The only people who could really tell us what the framers intended when they wrote the 2nd ammendment and the debates they had over it in Congress about its use and meaning are long dead. Cecil gave his interpretation based upon the legacy they left us and what he believes they were thinking. Oddly enough, Cecil, a fantastically smart person, is 180 degrees seperate from the various Supreme Courts, also fantastically smart people who made careers of being able to properly interpret this kind of thing, who have heard 2nd ammendment issues. Cecil has stated that it is clear the Framers intended to establish an individual right to bear arms and the Courts have stated it is not clear that the Framers intended to create an individual right to bear arms and that the Congress/States can restrict gun ownership. Both sides have enough citations from personal letters and various ancient documents to bury you if you look at them funny. Short answer, Cecil, although it pains me to admit it, did not dish out the Straight Dope in this instance. There is no Straight Dope to be dished. Or rather, there is dope to be dished, but the only ones who could dish it authoritatively are long dead. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/54 "2003-05-29T22:03:24Z")
Question: Are recipients of concealed-carry permits required to register their guns’ serial numbers? ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/55 "2003-05-29T22:09:54Z")
It doesn’t look like it, **sqweels** - going by **MEBuckner** ’s link above: > [@](#): > > 30.31 (d) Nothing contained in any provision of this section or > 30.32 any other law requires or authorizes the registration, > 30.33 documentation, collection, or providing of serial numbers or > 30.34 other data on firearms or on firearms’ owners. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/56 "2003-05-29T22:16:48Z")
In MI, when you buy a pistol, you take it to your local PD for a ‘saftey inspection’ (registration), at which time the make, model, and SN of the pistol is recorded. You are then given a ‘green card’, which you must carry with you (assuming you have a CCW). ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/57 "2003-05-29T22:17:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sqweels \* > \*\*Question: Are recipients of concealed-carry permits required to register their guns’ serial numbers? \*\* Almost certain that fed. BATF and/or Brady Law require dealers to keep some records on this information. ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/58 "2003-05-29T23:00:19Z")
I’m sorry **Mtgman** but my intent was to dissuade anyone from turning this into a GC GD based on **DtC** ’s rather (IMHO) inflammatory post. Please join us in the other threads, [Vincent Price]Bwuha-hahahahahahaha…[/Vincent Price], if you dare… Oh, BTW **Huerta88** , IIRC, in Virginia, you do not need to register a particular firearm in order to obtain a CCW, ie., you can obtain a CCW without actually owning a firearm (after going through the requisite training classes, if not prior military or LEO, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![Kalashnikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@Kalashnikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalashnikov)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/59 "2003-05-29T23:37:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sqweels \* > \*\*Question: Are recipients of concealed-carry permits required to register their guns’ serial numbers? \*\* In many (most?) states, no. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/60 "2003-05-29T23:49:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* > > * * * Never mind… 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166.md?page=4)