# Minnesota becomes a Shall Issue state. Your comments? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 29, 2003, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166 "2003-05-29T01:52:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/61 "2003-05-29T23:59:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Huerta88 \* > \*\*[http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/lott.pdf](http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/lott.pdf) > See FN 12 and accompanying text. \*\* Your cite showed a lot of statistics attempting to correlate lower crime rates with concealed carry laws, however the correlation does not prove causation, and, in fact, crime went down _everywhere_ under Clinton, so it cannot be taken as definitive that concealed carry had anything to with it. And I didn’t see any criminals expressing any fear of C and C. That’s an extropolation, not a fact. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/62 "2003-05-30T00:06:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mtgman \* > \*\*Cecil. Well, to be honest, it wasn’t a fair question. You see, there really ISN’T a Straight Dope to be issued on the subject. The only people who could really tell us what the framers intended when they wrote the 2nd ammendment and the debates they had over it in Congress about its use and meaning are long dead. Cecil gave his interpretation based upon the legacy they left us and what he believes they were thinking. Oddly enough, Cecil, a fantastically smart person, is 180 degrees seperate from the various Supreme Courts, also fantastically smart people who made careers of being able to properly interpret this kind of thing, who have heard 2nd ammendment issues. Cecil has stated that it is clear the Framers intended to establish an individual right to bear arms and the Courts have stated it is not clear that the Framers intended to create an individual right to bear arms and that the Congress/States can restrict gun ownership. Both sides have enough citations from personal letters and various ancient documents to bury you if you look at them funny. > > Short answer, Cecil, although it pains me to admit it, did not dish out the Straight Dope in this instance. There is no Straight Dope to be dished. Or rather, there is dope to be dished, but the only ones who could dish it authoritatively are long dead. > > Enjoy, > Steven \*\* Maybe I should have said it like this: It has never been definitively decided that the 2nd amendent extends to private individuals. When people say they they have a constitutional"right" to own a firearm, they are asserting an _opinion_ not a matter of settled fact. ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/63 "2003-05-30T00:15:29Z")
> [@](#): > > in fact, crime went down everywhere under Clinton, Maybe it had something to do with the economy, and not any draconian gun laws that the Clinton administration advocated??? **UncleBeer and ExTank** have postulated upon this in other GC GD’s. Makes for excellent reading, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/64 "2003-05-30T00:21:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*If all these little Travis Bickles know that they won’t be able to take their pea shooters inside anywhere then maybe they’ll leave them at home…or better yet not leave home to begin with. \*\* Travis Bickle was a hero! He saved Jodie Foster! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/65 "2003-05-30T00:21:47Z")
I agree that the economy is far more likely to have been a factor than gun control laws. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/66 "2003-05-30T00:23:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > \*\*Travis Bickle was a hero! He saved Jodie Foster! 😃 \*\* Are you talking to me? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/67 "2003-05-30T00:29:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Your cite showed a lot of statistics attempting to correlate lower crime rates with concealed carry laws, however the correlation does not prove causation, and, in fact, crime went down _everywhere_ under Clinton, so it cannot be taken as definitive that concealed carry had anything to with it. > > And I didn’t see any criminals expressing any fear of C and C. That’s an extropolation, not a fact. \*\* FN 12: “Wright and Rossi (p. 151) interviewed felony prisoners in 10 state correctional systems and found that 56 percent said that criminals would not attack a potential victim that was known to be armed. They also found evidence that criminals in those states with the highest levels of civilian gun ownership worried the most about armed victims. James D. Wright & Peter Rossi, Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms (1986).” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/68 "2003-05-30T00:42:17Z")
“…that was _known_ to be armed” is not the same as _might_ be armed. It says they “found evidence” that criminals “worried more” in the shoot 'em up states but it didn’t say what that “evidence” was, or that those “worries” prevented criminals from committing crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Doc\_Nickel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@Doc\_Nickel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doc_Nickel)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/69 "2003-05-30T01:09:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Your cite showed a lot of statistics attempting to correlate lower crime rates with concealed carry laws, however the correlation does not prove causation, and, in fact, crime went down _everywhere_ under Clinton, so it cannot be taken as definitive that concealed carry had anything to with it. \*\* -Except that’s proof against your earlier tirade, **D the** (selective) **C**. Since '86, the number of “shall issue” CCW states- meaning those states are now _obligated_ to issue a permit if the applicant passes the qualifications- has risen from what, twelve? To something like 36 or 37 with Minnesota. So the number of states issuing CCW permits has nearly tripled, at the same time you yourself acknowledge that crime has gone down. Yep, blood has surely been a’runnin’ in the streets because of all them hot-tempered “Clint Eastwood wannabes”, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/70 "2003-05-30T02:01:05Z")
Crime always goes down when the economy is good. Wait until Shrub’s coming depression really kicks in…then it’s going to be like the wild, wild west. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/71 "2003-05-30T02:02:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sqweels \* > \*\*Question: Are recipients of concealed-carry permits required to register their guns’ serial numbers? \*\* In California, yes, you must give a description and serial number of the guns you will be “carrying”. The ccw license is only good for the guns listed/registered. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/72 "2003-05-30T02:10:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Doc Nickel \* > \*\* > > Since '86, the number of “shall issue” CCW states- meaning those states are now _obligated_ to issue a permit if the applicant passes the qualifications- has risen from what, twelve? To something like 36 or 37 with Minnesota. > > \*\* The official count is 34(plus Vermont). We just got New Mexico, Colorado, and Minnesota in the past couple of months. Ohio is maybe next since if they dont, it will be like Vermont where anyone can carry without a permit due to a recent state court decision. [http://www.packing.org/state/report\_basic.jsp?search=shall\_issue](http://www.packing.org/state/report_basic.jsp?search=shall_issue) ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/73 "2003-05-30T02:20:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\* I do think that gun owning should be regulated-d’uh, someone shouldn’t be able to buy a big ass machine gun or whatever five minutes after getting out of prison. \*\* They cant! Generally, ex-felons cannot own ANY!!! gun for the rest of their life(with very few exceptions). In my state, they also cannot own a bow and arrow either. Nor can they even live in a house which has a gun, meaning that their wife cannot own one either. For the most part, (convicted felon) criminals cannot own, possess, nor carry any weapon in nearly every state, so you can now rest at ease, you dont have to worry about (previously convicted) criminals having a gun. Furthermore, those convicted of even simple minor criminal mis-demeanors, are very rarely allowed to carry guns, even if they never ever went to prison. Most states will not issue a ccw license to anyone with a criminal record, or with a recent criminal record of any kind. Lastly, federal law says that anyone who has EVER!!! been convicted of any type of domestic violence, even a misdemeanor 50 years ago, can never ever own a gun, and not even possess a single bullet. ---
**Author:** ![Zabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/8baadc/32.png) [@Zabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabal)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/74 "2003-05-30T03:18:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\* > This is sad. How many people just sit around every night, fondling their nine millimeters, fantasizing that one day they’ll get to be a hero and shoot somebody. Now they get to tote their little substitute penises around with them every where they go. > \*\* This would be humorus if it was not so pathetic, I have had a Concealed pistol permit in michigan for well over a year and have never felt the need to be a hero nor the urge to harm anyone, if anything I have been much more passive. If you do not agree with laws fine its your opinion, no need to try to insult people that DO abide by said laws. Take care and seek some help please 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Zabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/8baadc/32.png) [@Zabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabal)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/75 "2003-05-30T03:20:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*There is no constutional right to own a gun. The 2nd amendment refers onl to militias…well _regulated_ militias. \*\* Sorry you are wrong, this was put to the supreame court last year and was proven to be a induvidules right to own a firearm, but thank you for passing on uninformed information as usual. ---
**Author:** ![Zabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/8baadc/32.png) [@Zabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabal)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/76 "2003-05-30T03:23:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\*In MI, when you buy a pistol, you take it to your local PD for a ‘saftey inspection’ (registration), at which time the make, model, and SN of the pistol is recorded. You are then given a ‘green card’, which you must carry with you (assuming you have a CCW). \*\* Sorry but you are NOT required to carry your green card, it is recomended though incase the NICS system is down. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/77 "2003-05-30T03:40:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BF \* > **I’m sorry Mtgman but my intent was to dissuade anyone from turning this into a GC GD based on DtC’s rather (IMHO) inflammatory post. Please join us in the other threads, [Vincent Price]Bwuha-hahahahahahaha…[/Vincent Price], if you dare…** Been there a few times actually. Wasn’t a lot of fun, don’t really care much about the issue. Being armed doesn’t seem to reduce the risk of being a victim of crime(assuming you conceal your armament) nor does an armed populace seem to create anarchy. I don’t think a popular uprising with hunting rifles and handguns is possible in the era of modern militaries, so I’m really ambivalent to the whole issue. Legalize, doesn’t impact me much, restrict, doesn’t impact me much except for the whole “I don’t like the government restricting ANY of my liberties” libertarian part of me. So, no dog in that fight. It’s all akin to a religious debate IMHO. Everyone arguing over what the inspiration for the words in some ancient document was and no real way to settle it until/unless we can invent time travel or resurrect those guys. I like to stick to debates with more factual content instead of interpretative. Just a personal preference. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/78 "2003-05-30T03:58:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zabal \* > \*\*Sorry you are wrong, this was put to the supreame court last year and was proven to be a induvidules right to own a firearm, but thank you for passing on uninformed information as usual. \*\* Cite? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/79 "2003-05-30T04:06:52Z")
\*\*Crime always goes down when the economy is good. Wait until Shrub’s coming depression really kicks in…then it’s going to be like the wild, wild west. \*\* Crime sometimes moves parallel with the economy, but not always. The 60s was boom times, and the crime rate excalated to all-time highs due to other social pressures. By contrast, our grandparents lived with a lot more poverty than we do and they had to deal with less crime. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166/80 "2003-05-30T04:07:27Z")
> [@](#): > > There is no constutional right to own a gun. The 2nd amendment refers onl to militias…well regulated militias. Lots of things aren’t constitutional rights. But if the states nevertheless choose to give you that right that’s their prerogative. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/minnesota-becomes-a-shall-issue-state-your-comments/178166.md?page=5)