# Miscellaneous tough questions for Christians **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 24, 2015, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713 "2015-05-24T11:07:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/221 "2015-05-29T21:28:13Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > As long as it is not that crap that Peyton Manning is always shilling for. That stuff is beyond redemption. Support your local pizza parlor. Agreed. Goes without saying, as far as I’m concerned. If they’d had Papa John’s and Domino’s, Rome would have fallen a lot sooner. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/222 "2015-05-29T23:49:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And I say that the suffering of both Job and his family is of similar dimension. You demand to know what good it was, and assert that the only value was a sadistic bet. But I say that you’re three years old when it comes to understanding what kinds of second-, third-, fourth-, and fifth-order ripple effects came from the experience. And if you could comprehend it, I aver that you’d nod, and say that now you get it. So, the bible is god’s diary only written for his understanding and not as a guide for us mortals? If a story requires some master key to understand, then why is it included in the book? Either the ripples matter or they don’t. If they don’t then the story stands on its own as proof of a sadistic being poking at his creations. If the ripples do matter, then spell them out and let us morons in on the joke. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/223 "2015-05-30T02:26:07Z")
BTW for a lot of questions about injustice pastors might say this is a cursed world and/or God is perfectly holy and must punish sin (e.g. In hell) ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/224 "2015-05-30T03:16:47Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > BTW for a lot of questions about injustice pastors might say this is a cursed world and/or God is perfectly holy and must punish sin (e.g. In hell) Bully for God. Sounds like we’re screwed. -VM ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/225 "2015-05-30T03:47:32Z")
> [@Smartass](#): > > Aren’t you telling it, like, right now? No, not in any meaningful way. > [@](#): > > My question is this: Where are the fifth-order ripple effects that make these “sacrifices” beautiful? Can that three year old understand why Hitler had to be stopped, and the fact that his father’s sacrifice was worthwhile? No. Why do you believe that you’d be able to understand the fifth-order ripple effects? Look, I know that this is a logical fallacy, argument from ignorance. “Because you don’t understand it, it must exist.” But I’m not offering this argument as proof of anything. I’m offering it as a model of the universe’s structure. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/226 "2015-05-30T03:55:07Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > So, the bible is god’s diary only written for his understanding and not as a guide for us mortals? > > If a story requires some master key to understand, then why is it included in the book? Either the ripples matter or they don’t. If they don’t then the story stands on its own as proof of a sadistic being poking at his creations. If the ripples do matter, then spell them out and let us morons in on the joke. What matters in that particular story is precisely the model I’m explaining – when Job complains at the injustice done to him, God replies, “Where were you when I made the world?” God, in this story, is pointing out exactly what the flaw is in your implicit demand to understand why, to have the reasons explained to you. He’s pointing out that He’s a being that can create a universe, and you’re not, and that necessarily means that He comprehends stuff that you CAN’T. Thus my analogy to the querulous three year old. He does not, cannot, in fact, understand why what happened to his family is terrible for him but good for the whole world. You, in turn, do not, in fact CANNOT, understand why evil must exist in this world. It does you no good to demand an explanation, any more than a horse can demand to have differential equations explained to him. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/227 "2015-05-30T04:09:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What matters in that particular story is precisely the model I’m explaining – when Job complains at the injustice done to him, God replies, “Where were you when I made the world?” > > God, in this story, is pointing out exactly what the flaw is in your implicit demand to understand why, to have the reasons explained to you. He’s pointing out that He’s a being that can create a universe, and you’re not, and that necessarily means that He comprehends stuff that you CAN’T. Thus my analogy to the querulous three year old. He does not, cannot, in fact, understand why what happened to his family is terrible for him but good for the whole world. You, in turn, do not, in fact CANNOT, understand why evil must exist in this world. > > It does you no good to demand an explanation, any more than a horse can demand to have differential equations explained to him. In other words God either cannot, or will not, explain Himself. Now, man at that time may not be able to understand fully…but what the fuck is stopping God from filling in the blanks and doing a little “Biblical Editing” as we gain more understanding? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/228 "2015-05-30T04:19:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You, in turn, do not, in fact CANNOT, understand why evil must exist in this world. Sure I can. He might just has to wave his magic wand for it to happen, though. Back to the story then. What is the point of the story if he can’t explain to Job, or us, why it is happening? If it is just to say that he is god and we can’t comprehend why he does stuff, wouldn’t just saying that rather than torturing someone do the same thing? Otherwise, with no real point to the story that we can comprehend it just seems that he’s torturing someone for shits and giggles. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/229 "2015-05-30T04:53:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > . . . It does you no good to demand an explanation, any more than a horse can demand to have differential equations explained to him. I don’t agree. We aren’t horses. I can “dumb down” differential equations so that a nine-year-old kid can comprehend the point, the gist of it. God could have given an answer to Job. Just dismissing him out of hand is unfair; it isn’t even trying to communicate. It shows a weakness in God, a falling away from the perfection some attribute to him. (And…yes, we can draw out leviathan with a hook.) ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/230 "2015-05-30T05:53:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But I’m not offering this argument as proof of anything. I’m offering it as a model of the universe’s structure. Not in any meaningful way. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/231 "2015-05-30T06:51:03Z")
Interesting resources: [http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/](http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/) See “highlights” on the right side. Also: [http://religioustolerance.org/conflict.htm](http://religioustolerance.org/conflict.htm) ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/232 "2015-05-30T06:58:15Z")
About a topic a pastor said they would cover: (genocide) > **[Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 20 - New International Version](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2B20)** > > Going to War - When you go to war against your enemies and see horses and chariots and an army greater than yours, do not be afraid of them, because the LORD your God, who brought you up out of Egypt, will be with you. When you are about to go into... “However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.” BTW in Job it was Satan’s idea to kill his relatives… God just allowed it. But here is a command from God for his chosen people. BTW those groups of people were cursed because Canaan’s father didn’t react to Noah’s drunken nakedness properly: > **[Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 9 - New International Version](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%209)** > > God’s Covenant With Noah - Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every... ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/233 "2015-05-30T07:08:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If there is no God and no heaven, then all moral statements are meaningless, because there is no standard that can be shown to have objective value. I disagree. The only way you can claim there is an _objective_ religious morality is by claiming there is an _objectively_ true religion. And there’s no such thing. People may believe their religion is true but they have to concede that this is a matter of faith not of objective proof. A person without religion stills has moral values - there are things he believes are moral and immoral. But he bases these beliefs on his own reason and opinions not on something he was told by an external authority claiming to represent a divine being. That brings us back around to the beginning; there are lots of people claiming to represent divine beings and they’re making contradictory claims. So nobody can follow every religious moral code. Which means that like non-believers, the moral code of religious believers is based on personal choice. Their choice is choosing which religion to believe in. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/234 "2015-05-30T07:13:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > God, in this story, is pointing out exactly what the flaw is in your implicit demand to understand why, to have the reasons explained to you. He’s pointing out that He’s a being that can create a universe, and you’re not, and that necessarily means that He comprehends stuff that you CAN’T. Thus my analogy to the querulous three year old. He does not, cannot, in fact, understand why what happened to his family is terrible for him but good for the whole world. You, in turn, do not, in fact CANNOT, understand why evil must exist in this world. So you’re saying that God can’t give answers to these questions that are understandable to human minds? If there are things God can’t do then he’s not omnipotent. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/235 "2015-05-30T07:26:25Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > BTW in Job it was Satan’s idea to kill his relatives… God just allowed it. But here is a command from God for his chosen people. God seems to allow satan pretty free reign. It is not entirely clear to what extent he intercedes on the behalf of any given human, he mostly just lets the adversary do his work. Job was a unique case of the two of them conducting an experiment. It would be an interesting question, to find out how much the preacher guys think is actually the work of the evil one and how much is caused either directly by god or by god’s negligence or ham-handedness. Tree falls on your car, insurance company calls it “an act of god”, does satan have any part in disease, natural disaster or tragic accidents? Why does god let him have the run of the place, and does prayer work as a means to reign him in? And really, if satan is such a sly and cunning trickster, how can you truly be sure that he was not the author of the bible? ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2015, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/236 "2015-05-30T09:41:09Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > God seems to allow satan pretty free reign. Yeah I think that is what the Bible says a lot: > **[How is Satan god of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4)? | GotQuestions.org](https://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-god-world.html)** > > How is Satan god of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4)? Is Satan in control of what happens on earth? > [@](#): > > And really, if satan is such a sly and cunning trickster, how can you truly be sure that he was not the author of the bible? My sister’s pastor’s believe that many Christians are ruled by religious demons and are going to hell. They have counterfeit gifts rather than gifts coming from the Holy Spirit. It also 2 Corinthians 11: > [@](#): > > …13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/237 "2015-05-31T21:50:18Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > Nup. Optative Subjunctive, like God Bless America or God Save The Queen. States a desire or wish of an external agency that the state will come about or happen, and not to be confused with the Imperative {which would take a comma anyway}, which - rather rashly - directs that agency: “God, defend New Zealand”. Functionally it’s the equivalent of “May God bless you”, or, for that matter, “May the Force be with you”. Live long and prosper. It still suggests that the person is not blessed or they wouldn’t need to tell God to bless another. What makes them think God only blesses some one if another tells him to, it isn’t a prayer but a command. To me it is an empty saying. If a God needs to be told or asked for anything it means he doesn’t know any more than a human. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/238 "2015-05-31T22:01:43Z")
To me this also shows this debate is about what some humans put on to a God and no God had anything to do with the writings, teachings,or inspirations of Divine being., Just the work of some humans. Humans believe what they wish were true and like to accept it as fact, but can’t prove it! ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/239 "2015-06-01T17:33:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why do you believe that you’d be able to understand the fifth-order ripple effects? Because understanding cause and effect is within the range of human mental ability, particularly if someone as smart as God were to condescend to offer an explanation. Telling me that I’m too stupid to understand is not likely to get me on board with the idea that God loves me and wants me to succeed. He sure was wiling to set Job up to fail. This reeks of the behavior of a human despot, not an omniscient, caring God. > [@Bricker](#): > > But I’m not offering this argument as proof of anything. I’m offering it as a model of the universe’s structure. I don’t find it very compelling. That is to say, the model you describe sounds far worse to me than what I imagine a Divine Being would create–not that I believe one did–so, if you’re saying that God said and did these things, well, I don’t believe you, because the picture of God you paint is not believable. And to be clear, I have no interest in professing belief in a God that I have zero admiration for. -VM ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2015, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/240 "2015-06-01T18:47:13Z")
I thought the purpose of the bible, was that believers would be able to understand their god better, and follow his laws, whatever they are, depending on what sect (some 50,000 to pick from Protestantism alone) one follows so that they can be saved. It’ll get 'em to heaven, and keep them out of hell, simply profess in JC, and as magical as abracadabra, you’re in. If the gist of the Christian position is that God is too incomprehensible for man to understand, the bible seems pointless. With many believers speaking on God’s behalf, it too, seems pointless to listen to any of them if their position eventually ends up back to this. Never mind this biblical god had to drown his own children, they think it’s a guide to raising their own kids. > [@Smartass](#): > > And to be clear, I have no interest in professing belief in a God that I have zero admiration for. That’s the strangest part of all. Of all of the gods, they had to pick from, then ended worshipping this one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713.md?page=13)