# Miscellaneous tough questions for Christians **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 24, 2015, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713 "2015-05-24T11:07:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/61 "2015-05-25T00:09:21Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > Were Adam and eve the first people and if so why do they say that the Australian aborigines have been around 40,000 years? Many Christians do not accept Genesis as factual. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/62 "2015-05-25T00:11:26Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > Were Adam and eve the first people and if so why do they say that the Australian aborigines have been around 40,000 years? What the hell kind of church do you go to where this is even an issue? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/63 "2015-05-25T00:28:02Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > Were Adam and eve the first people and if so why do they say that the Australian aborigines have been around 40,000 years? I guess that must mean they are not humans. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/64 "2015-05-25T00:28:22Z")
I was raised on Protestant Christianity and it never made sense to me. It sounds like some cruel lab experiment. Create imperfect creatures that are full of hard to satisfy physical and emotional needs and desires. Place them in a dangerous dog eat dog environment, expecting and commanding them to ignore all but the most basic and necessary of those drives. Set up a system of eternal reward versus eternal torture, but don’t base that reward or punishment on whether or not they toe the line. Instead, the way to avoid the torture is to blindly believe in a convoluted and hard to swallow story that the vast majority of them are never even told about. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/65 "2015-05-25T00:30:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What crime is worthy an eternity of punishment-_any_ punishment? I’d say none. And, even though I’m not a Christian, some pretty conservative churches (the Mormons come to mind) agree with me. For example: [Universalism and the Roman Catholic Church](http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universal_salvation_roman_catholic.html) > [@](#): > > The doctrine of universal salvation (also known as Apokatastasis or Apocatastasis ) has usually been considered through the centuries to be heterodox but has become orthodox. It was maintained by the Second Vatican Council and by Pope John Paul II and it is promoted in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church and in the post-Vatican II liturgy. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/66 "2015-05-25T00:33:54Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Many Christians do not accept Genesis as factual. Well in an earlier question and answer service they said that they think the 900+ year lifespans are literal… ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/67 "2015-05-25T00:34:37Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Certainly. This god is a sick, sick fuck. He tortures souls for eternity, or at least a very long time, for being decent folk who do not, chose not or cannot believe in him and practice symbolic cannibalism, but let a crazy nutbag blow himself up in this god’s name, and he goes to heaven, to a swarm of virginal pleasure. And you think we ought to believe in this monstrous pervert? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/68 "2015-05-25T00:50:30Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > Well in an earlier question and answer service they said that they think the 900+ year lifespans are literal… Do they accept the scientific consensus on evolution? Because if they don’t, I think easy questions would be more in order. “Evolutionary theory is one of the conceptual pillars of public health, saving literally millions of lives. Wouldn’t a benevolent, just and merciful God bless such uses of our divinely endowed intellect? Birds fly, fish swim and humans think. Shouldn’t we aim to follow our best nature?” ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/69 "2015-05-25T01:00:13Z")
> [@dr\_zippermeyer](#): > > I’m not a theologist but come on, put yourself in the position of God for a moment. You have to explain the creation of university to some ordinary Joe, whose reality consist of sand, goats and misery. You calmly and slowly explain everything about Higgs bosom, time-space, antimatter and even give an element solution to Schrödinger’s cat paradox. You don’t get mad and you try to use language comprehensible to illiterate shepherd. You then let him go to tell this to his buddies. The only thing he will be able to blurt out is: “God… errr… created the universe in seven days”. As a matter of fact, God has showed considerable mercy to us humans considering the circumstances. I have found good teachers are quite capable of using terminology and concepts that wouldn’t leave us even more confused. So if men are capable of such thought, God, who supposedly has all of these wonderful attributes, this isn’t one of them? How do you figure he has showed us considerable mercy? Or let God put himself/herself/it in our position for a moment. Not as God, not as half god, half man, but as 100% human. Aren’t we all examples of how god would be? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/70 "2015-05-25T01:03:40Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Evolutionary theory is one of the conceptual pillars of public health, saving literally millions of lives. I’m an atheist and a scientist by training, but I find that statement hard to believe. Where do you get it from? ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/71 "2015-05-25T01:04:50Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > "Evolutionary theory is one of the conceptual pillars of public health, saving literally millions of lives. . . . " Actually, when the public health movement was at its strongest, Darwinism was used to argue against basic public health measures: > **[Social Darwinism and the Poor](https://socialwelfare.library.vcu.edu/eras/social-darwinism-poor/)** > > Extrapolations from Darwinism, with its emphasis on evolutionary progress, offered reason for hope that a new and better social order could emerge from the turbulence. At the same time, by highligh… Few fundamentalist ministers will know enough progressive era history to realize what a softball question they have just been asked. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/72 "2015-05-25T01:05:49Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > Well in an earlier question and answer service they said that they think the 900+ year lifespans are literal… If you’re really an agnostic, I can’t imagine what you get out of attending such a church. Have you considered switching to one that embraces modern science more readily? Or are you there to try and unconert them? If the latter, good luck!! ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/73 "2015-05-25T01:33:33Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > This god is a sick, sick fuck. He tortures souls for eternity, or at least a very long time, for being decent folk who do not, chose not or cannot believe in him and practice symbolic cannibalism, but let a crazy nutbag blow himself up in this god’s name, and he goes to heaven, to a swarm of virginal pleasure. > > And you think we ought to believe in this monstrous pervert? You’re free to believe as you choose. However, it’s pretty obvious you need to reread what I’ve posted before continuing down that avenue. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/74 "2015-05-25T01:57:43Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > Well in an earlier question and answer service they said that they think the 900+ year lifespans are literal… You’re assuming that all Christians accept the Bible as the literal truth. I don’t buy a world created in 7 days, Eve being created from a rib, an apple tree in the Garden of Eden, Jonah and the whale, a world wide flood, etc… I see that as nothing more than oral traditions passed through generations, embellished at each step, before finally put to paper. I also find that the Pseudepigrapha, Apocrypha and other Sacred Writings reflect on man and his search for answers or reporting of facts. Seriously, CNN can’t get contemporary stories correct today, how do you expect people who lived 5000 years ago to have done any better when their sources were often generations removed? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/75 "2015-05-25T02:00:52Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > You’re free to believe as you choose. Sorry, but who are you to make that assertion? You just assume that because I am human, I can make that choice? No, I am constitutionally unable to decide to believe in a deity. I cannot choose. I could choose to join a church and participate in it avidly, but mouthing the words and praying the prayers and doing the rite things would not make me a believer. Perhaps I could fall off the roof, hit my head on the driveway and scramble my neurons to the point that I genuinely could believe. But that would not be your “free will” chimera. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/76 "2015-05-25T02:06:07Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Sorry, but who are you to make that assertion? You just assume that because I am human, I can make that choice? No, I am constitutionally unable to decide to believe in a deity. I cannot choose. I could choose to join a church and participate in it avidly, but mouthing the words and praying the prayers and do the rite things, but it would not make me a believer. > > Perhaps I could fall off the roof, hit my head on the driveway and scramble my neurons to the point that I genuinely could believe. But that would not be your “free will” chimera. Yet it’s that “free will” that allows you to post what you posted. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/77 "2015-05-25T02:39:06Z")
Most Christians believe that children under a certain age and the mentally ill have a straight shot to heaven if they die. Should we have a non-believer (who is going to hell anyway) start murdering children? Or at least mess them up enough so they are mentally ill? The time of life on this earth is really insignificant anyway, so what would it really matter that these conscience lives are ended early? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/78 "2015-05-25T02:39:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m an atheist and a scientist by training, but I find that statement hard to believe. Where do you get it from? Understanding of [antibiotic resistance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_resistance) is grounded on evolutionary theory. The germ theory of disease is the major conceptual underpinning of public health. The two are related. Yeah, I wasn’t thinking hard enough. If I was to re-pitch the question I’d pull on these articles: “Bacterial competition: surviving and thriving in the microbial jungle” > **[Bacterial competition: surviving and thriving in the microbial jungle](https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2879262/)** “Identification of innate immunity elicitors using molecular signatures of natural selection” > **[Identification of innate immunity elicitors using molecular signatures of...](https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3306723/)** > > The innate immune system is an ancient and broad-spectrum defense system found in all eukaryotes. The detection of microbial elicitors results in the up-regulation of defense-related genes and the elicitation of inflammatory and apoptotic responses.... [https://books.google.com/books?id=kHrhri4NuIcC&pg=PA361&lpg=PA361&dq=water+treatment+microbial+natural+selection&source=bl&ots=RpVI6qNR5D&sig=YwahUUsLXAsYbLsZxLazP9KiLgQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=54liVYCVE9bfoAS0voPQBQ&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=water%20treatment%20microbial%20natural%20selection&f=false](https://books.google.com/books?id=kHrhri4NuIcC&pg=PA361&lpg=PA361&dq=water+treatment+microbial+natural+selection&source=bl&ots=RpVI6qNR5D&sig=YwahUUsLXAsYbLsZxLazP9KiLgQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=54liVYCVE9bfoAS0voPQBQ&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=water%20treatment%20microbial%20natural%20selection&f=false) ## I can establish “Plays a role”, but “Pillar” may or may not be a decent characterization. PhillyGuy: I don’t think your link says that. Your link says that social darwinism was used by conservatives to discourage aid to the poor and by liberals to advance “education, good nutrition, and healthy living conditions,” etc. But the only references to public health (sanitation) in the article were ones that encouraged it. Unless I missed something. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/79 "2015-05-25T05:28:20Z")
I’ll edit: > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > “Evolutionary theory is one of the conceptual pillars of [del]public health[/del] bioscience, an endeavor which has[del],[/del] saved[del]ing[/del] literally millions of lives. Wouldn’t a benevolent, just and merciful God bless such uses of our divinely endowed intellect? Birds fly, fish swim and humans think. Shouldn’t we aim to follow our best nature?” That’s not to say that evolutionary theory itself has directly saved millions of lives (I’m not sure about that), though it has advanced our understanding of genetic disease, antibiotic resistance, developmental biology and separately plant and livestock breeding as well as computer science. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/80 "2015-05-25T07:01:32Z")
> [@dr\_zippermeyer](#): > > I’m not a theologist but come on, put yourself in the position of God for a moment. You have to explain the creation of university to some ordinary Joe, whose reality consist of sand, goats and misery. You calmly and slowly explain everything about Higgs bosom, time-space, antimatter and even give an element solution to Schrödinger’s cat paradox. So you’re saying either God has to talk about University-level science or nothing? He could say that the stars were created _before_ plants were, and birds were created _after_ land animals, and the Earth goes around the Sun, and our thoughts and emotions come from our brain and our life is based on our brain and heartbeat not breath coming through our nostrils. (God apparently started Adam’s life by mouth-to-mouth resuscitation but that would be useless if there is no heartbeat I think) > [@](#): > > You don’t get mad and you try to use language comprehensible to illiterate shepherd. Does Genesis 5 sound like something aimed at an **illiterate** shepherd? > **[Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 5 - New International Version](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2B5)** > > From Adam to Noah - This is the written account of Adam’s family line. When God created mankind, he made them in the likeness of God. He created them male and female and blessed them. And he named them “Mankind” when they were created. When Adam had... > [@](#): > > You then let him go to tell this to his buddies. The only thing he will be able to blurt out is: “God… errr… created the universe in seven days”. As a matter of fact, God has showed considerable mercy to us humans considering the circumstances. > > I guess anyone who has ever tried to explain something to a reporter will understand what I’m trying to say here. The Bible mentions the word “million” and could easily have said a “thousand million”. Or it could explain the number like Genesis 22:17 - “I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore” It could say that the number of years ago that the Earth was made is equal to the number of grains of sand in a handful of sand, etc. A child could understand that. It makes no sense to insist that the only thing his people could understand was that the universe was made in 7 days. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713.md?page=5)