# Miscellaneous tough questions for Christians **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 24, 2015, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713 "2015-05-24T11:07:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/101 "2015-05-25T16:37:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I think I remember a lot of tearing of hair and gnashing of teeth-was that the one? Oh ye of little faith! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/102 "2015-05-25T16:43:19Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > There is this. No matter what question is put forth, someone usually comes up and says, “That question is invalid because Christians really don’t believe that”, and by “Christians” it is meant “The church I follow” or “The Christians I get along with.” Here’s the problem. Christianity is defined by the New Testament. Not the Old Testament. The Old Testament prophesied the coming of a messiah, which, the Christians believe, occurred with the birth of Jesus. Other than that, the New Testament (or New Law) is where Christianity is defined. I suspect you’ll find a great deal of disagreement with respect to the Old Testament in modern Christianity. Some choosing to adhere to a literal interpretation, while others see it as a collection of symbolic stories. Yet even basic concepts of Christianity are defined differently. Concepts as fundamental as the Trinity are defined differently among different Christian faiths. The problem comes when one branch of Christianity asserts that their view is the one and only correct view. The fault probably lies with various church leaders who interpret different scriptures/concepts in unique ways and thereafter declare their view a tenet of their church. So, true, Christians often disagree on just about everything taught in the New Testament. Remember though, the Old Testament was written probably 1500 or so years before man realized the earth was round. Expecting those authors to relate the big bang and dark matter to the readers of that era just wasn’t going to happen. Hence Genesis. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/103 "2015-05-25T16:45:51Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Remember though, the Old Testament was written probably 1500 or so years before man realized the earth was round. Expecting those authors to relate the big bang and dark matter to the readers of that era just wasn’t going to happen. Hence Genesis. The ancient Greeks knew the earth was round. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/104 "2015-05-25T16:51:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The ancient Greeks knew the earth was round. Sure, in the 6th century BC. But by then most, if not all, of the scriptures in the Old Testament were already 1000+ years old. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/105 "2015-05-25T16:51:44Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > They disagreed with the plan of salvation. They were against the free will part of it. The angels and Satan rebelled before humans were created. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/106 "2015-05-25T16:53:19Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > The angels and Satan rebelled before humans were created. Where was that written, again? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/107 "2015-05-25T16:53:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Turning away from God. He knew they would turn away from him before he created them so that would not be fair or just. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/108 "2015-05-25T16:55:03Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Sure, in the 6th century BC. But by then most, if not all, of the scriptures in the Old Testament were already 1000+ years old. Not in written form. But the OT stories in Genesis probably go back thousands of years before they were written down. They probably date from an ancestral culture that we would not recognize as Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/109 "2015-05-25T16:55:50Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Who is it that says “bless you” in a situation like that? ’ To me the saying God bless you or just Bless you is meaning God has to be told to Bless people. I would think life itself is a blessing and what you do with that gift should be enough! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/110 "2015-05-25T16:58:10Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > For your crimes you’ll be forgiven. The only sin that’s unpardonable is blastmaphy against the Holy Ghost. Basically, that’s having a perfect knowledge and thereafter, denying God. Under that circumstance, you are no longer blessed. > Satan had a perfect knowledge, as did his followers (they _knew_ the Father and his plan). Therefore, they are doomed to an eternity absent the Father. IE they will not be forgiven. If it were possible for a man to gain such a perfect knowledge, and thereafter deny the Father, he too would lose his salvation. > > Punishment, even torture as others have called it, means different things in different contexts. To a Christian, it would be spending eternity outside of the presence of the Father. To others, it means confinement in a cell and waterboarding. There are no cells or waterboarding in the afterlife. If God is all knowing and knew this ahead of time he is not being fair, why create something you knew you were going to destroy? Why let Satan exist? He must have wanted evil to prevail in some way. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/111 "2015-05-25T17:00:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not in written form. > > But the OT stories in Genesis probably go back thousands of years before they were written down. They probably date from an ancestral culture that we would not recognize as Jewish. True, and at that time man had no idea that the Earth wasn’t the center of the universe. If Genesis were written today, it would include the physics of the Big bang, the creation of stars, galaxies, super novas creating complex elements, etc. Ancient man wasn’t really ready for that. Genesis and a heavenly hand worked just fine for their needs. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/112 "2015-05-25T17:07:47Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > If God is all knowing and knew this ahead of time he is not being fair, why create something you knew you were going to destroy? Why let Satan exist? He must have wanted evil to prevail in some way. This is the concept of free will. Ironically, that was Satan’s plan. Forced compliance to the will of the Father, and glory to Satan for being such a smart leader. Christ said, allow them to fail, and I will atone for their sins and return them to the fold. You know the rest of the story. Why bother with all this? The mortal body is necessary to make it to eternal life. The mortal body only comes from this mortal experience. So, really, there are no losers. Even those who refuse to believe are not damned. They get an eternal life absent pain and suffering. They may not get ice cream on Sundays, but they are neither punished or tortured in any sense of the word. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/113 "2015-05-25T17:08:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Where was that written, again? It is in Genesis. It was after man was supposed to be created that they decided that Satan was jealous, and so why God couldn’t stop that makes no sense, why didn’t he just destroy Satan who was not able to live in perfect harmony as heaven is supposed to be,Heaven must not be to good a place if a spirit couldn’t bear it and the angels wanted more. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/114 "2015-05-25T17:13:07Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > If God is all knowing and knew this ahead of time he is not being fair, why create something you knew you were going to destroy? Why let Satan exist? He must have wanted evil to prevail in some way. The same God that, before leaving the Garden of Eden for a stroll, told the unknowing and totally innocent kids not to mess with the beautiful unguarded fruit, then left them in the capable hands of good ol’ Uncle Serpentor? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/115 "2015-05-25T17:17:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The same God that, before leaving the Garden of Eden for a stroll, told the unknowing and totally innocent kids not to mess with the beautiful unguarded fruit, then left them in the capable hands of good ol’ Uncle Serpentor? To be fair, God has “evolved” since then. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/116 "2015-05-25T17:23:08Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > It is in Genesis. It was after man was supposed to be created that they decided that Satan was jealous, and so why God couldn’t stop that makes no sense, why didn’t he just destroy Satan who was not able to live in perfect harmony as heaven is supposed to be,Heaven must not be to good a place if a spirit couldn’t bear it and the angels wanted more. That’s not in Genesis. Have you read the book of Genesis? Most of the stuff about the fall of Satan comes from the Enochian books and other non-canonical stuff. Genesis talks about the fall of mankind, with Adam and Eve and all that, but the only angels who show up in it is the angel that guards the Garden of Eden after Adam and Eve are expelled, and the angels who tell Abraham that Sarah will have a son, the angels that destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, and the angel that wrestles with Jacob. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/117 "2015-05-25T17:26:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The same God that, before leaving the Garden of Eden for a stroll, told the unknowing and totally innocent kids not to mess with the beautiful unguarded fruit, then left them in the capable hands of good ol’ Uncle Serpentor? Consider, they were given 2 commandments. 1. Don’t eat from the fruit of the tree of knowledge. 2. Be fruitful and multiply. Here’s the problem. Without knowledge, they weren’t even aware that they were naked, let alone that some act had to be done to “multiply.” So, they remain in the garden, oblivious to their physical dimorphism, thus disobeying the Father’s instruction to multiply. Or, they eat the fruit, realize they are naked, and understand the multiplying part, but, in doing so, violate his first commandment. The fall was engineered as was the entire plan of salvation. There was no way they couldn’t fail in keeping one of the commandments. Yet in failing, they gain an eternal existence, salvation and a return to the Father. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/118 "2015-05-25T17:29:28Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > …Most of the stuff about the fall of Satan comes from the Enochian books and other non-canonical stuff. … This is true. It’s part of the Pseudepigrapha. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/119 "2015-05-25T17:50:15Z")
Maybe they didn’t have the concept of “naked” in the sense that they weren’t aware of any alternative to nudity, but neither do animals and they reproduce just fine. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/120 "2015-05-25T17:50:26Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Consider, they were given 2 commandments. > > 1. Don’t eat from the fruit of the tree of knowledge. > 2. Be fruitful and multiply. You are mixing up chapters. “Be fruitful and multiply” was directed toward the _first_ man and woman, who were created side by side in chapter one. Nothing more is written about them. Adam and Eve were created in chapter two. They were the ones told not to eat the fruit of the tree of metaphors. Try to keep the stories straight. Four different people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713.md?page=7)