# Miscellaneous tough questions for Christians **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 24, 2015, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713 "2015-05-24T11:07:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/121 "2015-05-25T19:06:37Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > You are mixing up chapters. “Be fruitful and multiply” was directed toward the _first_ man and woman, who were created side by side in chapter one. Nothing more is written about them. Adam and Eve were created in chapter two. They were the ones told not to eat the fruit of the tree of metaphors. Try to keep the stories straight. Four different people. Genesis Chapter 1 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, **Be fruitful, and multiply** , and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Genesis Chapter 2 15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 **But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat** of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Emph mine. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/122 "2015-05-25T19:16:32Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > You are mixing up chapters. “Be fruitful and multiply” was directed toward the _first_ man and woman, who were created side by side in chapter one. Nothing more is written about them. Adam and Eve were created in chapter two. They were the ones told not to eat the fruit of the tree of metaphors. Try to keep the stories straight. Four different people. Not the first time I’ve heard this variation. How large a percentage of Christians believe this “Adam and Eve weren’t the first man and woman created” version, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/123 "2015-05-25T20:16:24Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Genesis Chapter 1 > > 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, **Be fruitful, and multiply** , and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. > > Genesis Chapter 2 > 15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of EdeGn to dress it and to keep it. > > 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: > > 17 **But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat** of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. > > Emph mine. Chapter 1: _26 And God saith, `Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness, and let them rule over fish of the sea, and over fowl of the heavens, and over cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that is creeping on the earth.' 27 And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them. ... 31 And God seeth all that He hath done, and lo, very good; and there is an evening, and there is a morning -- day the sixth.* Chapter 2: *1 And the heavens and the earth are completed, and all their host; 2 and God completeth by the seventh day His work which He hath made, and ceaseth by the seventh day from all His work which He hath made. ... 7 And Jehovah God formeth the man -- dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature. ... 18 And Jehovah God saith, `Not good for the man to be alone, I do make to him an helper – as his counterpart.’ … 21 And Jehovah God causeth a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he sleepeth, and He taketh one of his ribs, and closeth up flesh in its stead. 22 And Jehovah God buildeth up the rib which He hath taken out of the man into a woman, and bringeth her in unto the man; 23 and the man saith, `This [is] the [proper] step! bone of my bone, and flesh of my flesh!’ for this it is called Woman, for from a man hath this been taken; 24 therefore doth a man leave his father and his mother, and hath cleaved unto his wife, and they have become one flesh._(Young’s Literal Translation) Note that the manner of the creation of man and woman in chapter one differs greatly from the creation of Adam, then Eve, in chapter two. On the sixth day, he created man and woman, side by side, in his own image; on the eighth day, he created Adam from dirt, the hacked him up in the OR and made Eve from part of him. So the bible literally describes the creation of four different people. The first two were not put in the Garden, so they would be free of original sin, and apparently mortal (as they never had they opportunity to eat from the Tree of Life and become Pak Protectors) but likenesses of god. Adam and Eve were just dirt, animated, and so god treated them like dirt. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Not the first time I’ve heard this variation. How large a percentage of Christians believe this “Adam and Eve weren’t the first man and woman created” version, anyway? Most christians have not actually read the bible or examined Genesis that closely. In their minds, they just kind of merge the two chapters together, or a cleric finds some way to gloss that part over for them. And, of course, bear in mind that for the first seventeen or twenty centuries of Judeo-Christian theology, bibles themselves were very rare and expensive, most people had hardly even a chance to see but a page or two, so the textual/logical defects were not subject to much scrutiny. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/124 "2015-05-25T20:23:23Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Most christians have not actually read the bible or examined Genesis that closely. In their minds, they just kind of merge the two chapters together, or a cleric finds some way to gloss that part over for them. And, of course, bear in mind that for the first seventeen or twenty centuries of Judeo-Christian theology, bibles themselves were very rare and expensive, most people had hardly even a chance to see but a page or two, so the textual/logical defects were not subject to much scrutiny. I already understand that you number among those that believe it. Whether you are right or wrong to do so wasn’t my question. I’m asking how large a percentage of Christians also buy into this theory. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/125 "2015-05-25T21:58:24Z")
Here, simplified **eschereal** … 1 Timothy 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. Genesis 3:20 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; _because she was the mother of **all** living._ According to Genesis, ALL living (man) is the offspring of Eve. Your interpretation is one that is often incorrectly stated. Some people accept that Adam was a group of people based on a misinterpretation of the name Adam. The “Adam is a group” problem arises because two very close Hebrew words translated as Adam. It’s pretty settled that Adam was created from the dust, and Eve thereafter from the rib of Adam. Thereafter Eve became the mother of \*ALL \*living man. ---
**Author:** ![GeorgeLTirebiter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5ac83/32.png) [@GeorgeLTirebiter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GeorgeLTirebiter)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/126 "2015-05-25T22:13:35Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > The Christian answer to all of these is, “God works in mysterious ways. We mortals cannot hope to understand the wisdom of such an advanced being.” > > And…“When you go to heaven, it will all become clear to you.” Well, if you want to ask them a really tough question - one that they can’t answer by using the “mysterious way” dodge, or “have faith and trust in god”, ask them to reconcile the “Creation” with “Maxwell’s Equations”. Robert Maxwell - a 19th century physicist had it all mostly figured out, Einstein put the nail in the coffin. Besides, man wrote and edited the Bible. Presumably because god told them what to write. I’m unsure as to whether he spoke out loud, put the words in their heads, or just a chat over a cup of coffee. Anyone today claiming that god spoke to them and had them write a new gospel would be vilified by virtually every member of every major religion. But maybe I’ll go hang out at Starbucks and see what happens. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/127 "2015-05-25T22:31:10Z")
> [@Solid rocket fuel](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solid-rocket-fuel/6060/3): > > …What I believe or do not believe is irrelevant. > Please cease with your attempts to make this personal. You keep on making assertions about facts related to the Bible. BTW are you a Christian? If not your assertions aren’t very relevant ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/128 "2015-05-25T22:31:14Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > It’s pretty settled that Adam was created from the dust, and Eve thereafter from the rib of Adam. Thereafter Eve became the mother of \*ALL \*living man. Ok, so who the hell did god create on the sixth day? ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/129 "2015-05-25T22:37:22Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Consider, they were given 2 commandments. > > 1. Don’t eat from the fruit of the tree of knowledge. > 2. Be fruitful and multiply. > > Here’s the problem. Without knowledge, they weren’t even aware that they were naked, let alone that some act had to be done to “multiply.” . It is knowledge of good and evil not knowledge in general! It is about morality and without it people can breed like animals. But due to embellishments how can you be sure of any of the story at all? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2015, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/130 "2015-05-25T23:26:35Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > It is knowledge of good and evil not knowledge in general! It is about morality and without it people can breed like animals. But due to embellishments how can you be sure of any of the story at all? It is _not_ a story, it is poetry. It was never meant to be taken literally. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/131 "2015-05-26T00:31:08Z")
> [@Genesis 1:5](#): > > God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. Whoever wrote that didn’t realize that it’s only “night” because the Earth is in the Sun’s shadow as it revolves. Most places in the universe are in perpetual darkness unless you’e near a star in which case it’s perpetually light. The ancients may have seen day and night as this grand dichotomy of existence, but it’s just a local phenomena here on Earth and not something God is likely to care much about. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/132 "2015-05-26T01:19:59Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > You keep on making assertions about facts related to the Bible. BTW are you a Christian? If not your assertions aren’t very relevant How does that follow? There are lots of people who are very well educated regarding religions they don’t actually believe or practice. Are Christians, likewise, forbidden from commenting upon Islam or Buddhism? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/133 "2015-05-26T01:26:24Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > You keep on making assertions about facts related to the Bible. BTW are you a Christian? If not your assertions aren’t very relevant Does a Paleontologist have to be a dinosaur to have a relevant “assertion” with respect to dinosaurs? That seems to be the sum of your logic. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/134 "2015-05-26T01:31:51Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Here’s the problem. Without knowledge, they weren’t even aware that they were naked, let alone that some act had to be done to “multiply.” It’s not like sex is a hard thing to figure out. There’s nothing in Genesis saying that other animals ate from the tree of knowledge, and they tend to have sex just fine. Besides, if that was God’s goal, couldn’t he have just said, “Oh, Adam and Eve, let me tell you about the birds and the bees. Then, after that, I’m going to explain sex to you.” ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/135 "2015-05-26T02:03:36Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It’s not like sex is a hard thing to figure out. There’s nothing in Genesis saying that other animals ate from the tree of knowledge, and they tend to have sex just fine. Besides, if that was God’s goal, couldn’t he have just said, “Oh, Adam and Eve, let me tell you about the birds and the bees. Then, after that, I’m going to explain sex to you.” The problem is this. In the garden, Adam and Eve were immortal. They would have lived forever, in the garden, doing whatever they did all day long. In order for man to return to the Father, as was the plan, man has to suffer a mortal death. That never would have happened in the garden absent the fall. Man, due to Adam and Eve’s sin, now suffers that mortal death. That death then allows a return to the Father’s presence and an immortal life. Post fall, as a mortal, man gained the ability to reproduce. You can read in Genesis about the Lord telling Eve, as partial punishment, that she shall suffer the pain of childbirth - Eve now becomes the mother of the living as she now can produce children. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/136 "2015-05-26T02:16:08Z")
The book of Genesis never says that Adam and Eve were immortal in the garden of Eden, and it never says they became mortal as a result of their eating the fruit. God tells them that if they eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge, they’ll die from it, but they don’t, and the actual punishments God gives them are as follows: 1. They have to leave the Garden and can’t come back in. 2. The snake has to crawl on the ground and people and snakes will hate each other from now on, and people will try to kill snakes. 3. Childbearing’s going to hurt for Eve now and she has to obey Adam. 4. Adam has to actually farm for food and it’s not going to be easy for them to get food anymore. Those are the punishments that Adam, Eve, and the snake get. In fact, the book of Genesis explicitly points out that Adam’s not immortal, because after God realizes Adam ate the fruit of the tree of good and evil, he worries that Adam will eat the fruit of the tree of life too and become immortal, which is why he kicks them out of the Garden and puts a flaming sword there to guard the Tree of Life against Adam, so he can’t eat it. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/137 "2015-05-26T03:07:46Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > Does Genesis 5 sound like something aimed at an **illiterate** shepherd? > [Genesis 5 - From Adam to Noah - This is the written - Bible Gateway](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+5) Exactly like; it’s an oral genealogy for a pre-literate culture. There are plenty of contemporary examples: when Maori formally meet in a traditional setting, they will spend a _long_ time establishing _whakapapa_, or an oral history of who begat whom and where and when. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/138 "2015-05-26T03:15:05Z")
He did not want them to eat from the tree of life because that just turns breeders into Pak Protectors, and he still needed them to breed. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/139 "2015-05-26T03:15:50Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > ’ > > To me the saying God bless you or just Bless you is meaning God has to be told to Bless people. I would think life itself is a blessing and what you do with that gift should be enough! Nup. Optative Subjunctive, like God Bless America or God Save The Queen. States a desire or wish of an external agency that the state will come about or happen, and not to be confused with the Imperative {which would take a comma anyway}, which - rather rashly - directs that agency: “God, defend New Zealand”. Functionally it’s the equivalent of “May God bless you”, or, for that matter, “May the Force be with you”. Live long and prosper. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/140 "2015-05-26T04:01:29Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > He did not want them to eat from the tree of life because that just turns breeders into Pak Protectors, and he still needed them to breed. Finally an answer that makes sense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713.md?page=8)