# Miscellaneous tough questions for Christians **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 24, 2015, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713 "2015-05-24T11:07:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/161 "2015-05-26T22:03:00Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > That’s why they had so many children in the garden, right… After all, they were commanded to, so they surely must have done it. Wonder why Genesis is silent about all those born, in the Garden, to Adam and Eve? > > Your questions are so far from genuine that I am losing any desire to respond to you. They didn’t have children in the garden because they were only there a few days!! ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/162 "2015-05-26T22:06:09Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Then challenge him on his specific errors. > > Don’t dismiss all non-Christians and their opinions. That’s blanket prejudice and unreasonable. You could conceivably show that non-Christians are incorrect in Bible interpretation slightly more often than Christians (although the actual evidence shows exactly the opposite effect.) But you certainly can’t show that non-Christians’ assertions regarding Bible interpretation are irrelevant. I did challenge him on his tree of knowledge vs breeding point. I don’t have a problem for most non-Christians in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/163 "2015-05-26T23:20:56Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > And thus, death was introduced into an otherwise “immortal” world. > > Romans 5:12 > Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned… > > A world without death is an immortal world. That’s not part of the book of Genesis, though. That was written many hundreds of years later by somebody who was trying to fit Jesus’s death into the Genesis story. We have no evidence that the authors of Genesis took that interpretation, and it’s certainly not in the text of Genesis. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/164 "2015-05-27T00:04:23Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > They didn’t have children in the garden because they were only there a few days!! Nice guess. Can you provide a cite for that? Otherwise, we can assume that it was sometime less than 130 years. Genesis 5 3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/165 "2015-05-27T00:05:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What crime is worthy an eternity of punishment-_any_ punishment? Socks with sandals ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/166 "2015-05-27T00:10:34Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > That’s not part of the book of Genesis, though. That was written many hundreds of years later by somebody who was trying to fit Jesus’s death into the Genesis story. We have no evidence that the authors of Genesis took that interpretation, and it’s certainly not in the text of Genesis. I think you better go back to Genesis and reread it. I’d point it out to you again, but it’s already in this tread several times. Eve eats, adam eats, (sin) they now become cursed and will suffer death…a death that they would not have suffered had they remained in the garden. Romans 5:12 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned. This is not an attempt to fit Jesus into anything. It’s the Apostle Paul explaining the fall. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/167 "2015-05-27T00:17:24Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Here, simplified **eschereal** … > > 1 Timothy 2:13 > For Adam was formed first, then Eve. That is a really nice verse, I like it a lot. I want to see more of that … First Tim 2: …_9 in like manner also the women, in becoming apparel, with modesty and sobriety to adorn themselves, not in braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or garments of great price, 10 but — which becometh women professing godly piety — through good works. 11 Let a woman in quietness learn in all subjection, 12 and a woman I do not suffer to teach, nor to rule a husband, but to be in quietness, 13 for Adam was first formed, then Eve, 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman, having been deceived, into transgression came, 15 and she shall be saved through the child-bearing, if they remain in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety._ Sweet. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/168 "2015-05-27T00:41:31Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > That is a really nice verse, I like it a lot. I want to see more of that … > … There are other non-canonical works you might be interested in. One is “The Legend of the Jews.” Although I don’t have a date for this material, it seems to precede Genesis. This is an interesting passage that I’m sure will gain the attention of many of the women here. \*\*The Legend of the Jews, 2, Woman. \* * * * When God was on the point of making Eve, He said: “I will not make her from the head of man, lest she carry her head high in arrogant pride; not from the eye, lest she be wanton-eyed; not from the ear, lest she be an eavesdropper; not from the neck, lest she be insolent; not from the mouth, lest she be a tattler; not from the heart, lest she be inclined to envy; not from the hand, lest she be a meddler; not from the foot, lest she be a gadabout. I will form her from a chaste portion of the body,” and to every limb and organ as He formed it, God said, "Be chaste! Be chaste! " \* Clearly way more effort and attention was given to creation of woman by God. (\*translated by By Louis Ginzberg) ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/169 "2015-05-27T00:52:19Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > That’s not in Genesis. Have you read the book of Genesis? Most of the stuff about the fall of Satan comes from the Enochian books and other non-canonical stuff. Genesis talks about the fall of mankind, with Adam and Eve and all that, but the only angels who show up in it is the angel that guards the Garden of Eden after Adam and Eve are expelled, and the angels who tell Abraham that Sarah will have a son, the angels that destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, and the angel that wrestles with Jacob. Not all the angels rebelled so that is why there were still angel who obeyed God Just the ones that followed Satan. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/170 "2015-05-27T00:54:39Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Consider, they were given 2 commandments. > > 1. Don’t eat from the fruit of the tree of knowledge. > 2. Be fruitful and multiply. > > Here’s the problem. Without knowledge, they weren’t even aware that they were naked, let alone that some act had to be done to “multiply.” > So, they remain in the garden, oblivious to their physical dimorphism, thus disobeying the Father’s instruction to multiply. > > Or, they eat the fruit, realize they are naked, and understand the multiplying part, but, in doing so, violate his first commandment. > > The fall was engineered as was the entire plan of salvation. There was no way they couldn’t fail in keeping one of the commandments. Yet in failing, they gain an eternal existence, salvation and a return to the Father. That makes no sense to me If an all knowing God knew what was going to happen he would not have had to test them. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/171 "2015-05-27T01:01:02Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > They didn’t have children in the garden because they were only there a few days!! Do you have a reference for this? Genesis doesn’t say how long they bade in obedience. (Adam did have time to name all the animals and birds, which probably took more than a few days…) > [@JohnClay](#): > > I did challenge him on his tree of knowledge vs breeding point. I don’t have a problem for most non-Christians in this thread. Okay, sorry, I misread your post about relevance. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/172 "2015-05-27T01:04:10Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > Nup. Optative Subjunctive, like God Bless America or God Save The Queen. States a desire or wish of an external agency that the state will come about or happen, and not to be confused with the Imperative {which would take a comma anyway}, which - rather rashly - directs that agency: “God, defend New Zealand”. Functionally it’s the equivalent of “May God bless you”, or, for that matter, “May the Force be with you”. Live long and prosper. What makes them think that the person or country is not blessed? It seems like they are telling God to do his stuff. I would not make my children beg for what I knew was good for them, nor hold anything back I knew would harm them or others, I expect God to be a better parent than me. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/173 "2015-05-27T01:09:28Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > That makes no sense to me If an all knowing God knew what was going to happen he would not have had to test them. People assume that failure is the end of all hope. It is not. Earthly existence provides a physical body, and that body is necessary for an immortal afterlife. Unfortunately, mortal existence provides an opportunity to fail and God certainly realized that. That is why he providing the Atonement. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/174 "2015-05-27T01:17:58Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > That makes no sense to me If an all knowing God knew what was going to happen he would not have had to test them. For God’s plan to proceed properly, he had to kick them out of the house, so he devised a foolproof plan to make it look like they fucked up royally, making sure Uncle Serpentor nudged things along so that when He got back he could pretend to be surprised at what went down. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/175 "2015-05-27T01:19:54Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > People assume that failure is the end of all hope. It is not. Earthly existence provides a physical body, and that body is necessary for an immortal afterlife. Unfortunately, mortal existence provides an opportunity to fail and God certainly realized that. That is why he providing the Atonement. This looks like some prime incoherent gibberish to me. Are there clerics who teach stuff like this, or did you just fry it up fresh? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/176 "2015-05-27T01:29:12Z")
Yes there are. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/177 "2015-05-27T01:29:49Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > What makes them think that the person or country is not blessed? It seems like they are telling God to do his stuff. I would not make my children beg for what I knew was good for them, nor hold anything back I knew would harm them or others, I expect God to be a better parent than me. My point was a factual one about how the language functions, not an abstract one about theology. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/178 "2015-05-27T02:19:24Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I think you better go back to Genesis and reread it. I’d point it out to you again, but it’s already in this tread several times. Eve eats, adam eats, (sin) they now become cursed and will suffer death…a death that they would not have suffered had they remained in the garden. Please, point that out again, because I don’t see where it says that in Genesis. I see where it says it in Romans, but where in Genesis? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/179 "2015-05-27T02:21:00Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Not all the angels rebelled so that is why there were still angel who obeyed God Just the ones that followed Satan. Yes, but that’s not the point I’m trying to make. I’m saying that the whole “angels rebelling” thing isn’t in the book of Genesis, like you claimed. It’s in the Enochian books. Genesis doesn’t have any angels rebelling, just wrestling, destroying cities, telling people about pregnancy, and holding swords. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713/180 "2015-05-27T02:29:29Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Please, point that out again, because I don’t see where it says that in Genesis. I see where it says it in Romans, but where in Genesis? Genesis 2:17 “…but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.” Genesis 3:19 "By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miscellaneous-tough-questions-for-christians/720713.md?page=10)