# Misogyny and Moderation, again **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [August 10, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462 "2019-08-10T16:43:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/121 "2019-08-11T13:20:45Z")
I’m not trying to impress anyone with my wokeness. And your grand ex-pat gadfly act is boring as hell. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/122 "2019-08-11T13:25:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, this is why women are leaving. QFT ---
**Author:** ![Royal\_Nonesutch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecb155/32.png) [@Royal\_Nonesutch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Royal_Nonesutch)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/123 "2019-08-11T13:29:20Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I’m not trying to impress anyone with my wokeness. And your grand ex-pat gadfly act is boring as hell. I guess this American is just sick of hypocrites talking out of both sides of their mouth depending on their intended audience, something that you seem to have honed into a fine art. I invite anyone who cares (which I fully expect to be no one) to investigate. Your statements excusing and defending Louis C.K. combined with the way you then turn around and wrap yourself in the cloak of a staunch Defender of Women is pretty vile, at least to my way of thinking, but I will let anyone who is interested judge for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/124 "2019-08-11T13:32:29Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Has it occurred to you that a system of moderation or sanctions needs to be defined in clear, reasonably unambiguous written rules beforehand? Because, otherwise, you end up in a situation where “community standards” mean different things to different people. And banning people for an offense they didn’t commit definitely leads to people leaving. > > It also leads to people deciding they have nothing to lose, they’ll be banned regardless eventually, so they might as well act as offensively as possible. I disagree with almost all of this. My second year of teaching, I brought the class in from recess, and one student told me, “Mr. Dorkness, Bobby ate a leaf.” Kid had found some random plant on the playground and eaten a leaf of it as a joke. And I had an epiphany: **I could never predict all the ways that kids could be stupid**. Ever since, I’ve focused classroom rules less on a comprehensive list of specific behaviors, and much more on some general guiding principles. You can’t ever predict the ways kids will be stupid, so instead build up some general expectations, some guidelines, and correct the kids when they violate those guidelines. Moderation? Same thing. You can’t ever predict all the ways that posters can be jerks. So instead of trying to come up with a comprehensive set of rules, go with deliberately vague rules. Does banning people for an offense they didn’t commit lead to people leaving? Uh, okay. That’s irrelevant. Do people who feel they have nothing to lose act extra-obnoxious? Not everyone does. That’s a pretty shitty impulse, and non-jerks don’t give in to that impulse. If someone does follow that impulse, I want them gone. > [@Royal\_Nonesutch](#): > > I invite anyone who cares (which I fully expect to be no one) to investigate. Seriously, you think this is better here than in the Pit? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/125 "2019-08-11T13:34:32Z")
> [@Royal\_Nonesutch](#): > > I guess this American is just sick of hypocrites talking out of both sides of their mouth depending on their intended audience, something that you seem to have honed into a fine art. > > I invite anyone who cares (which I fully expect to be no one) to investigate. Your statements excusing and defending Louis C.K. combined with the way you then turn around and wrap yourself in the cloak of a staunch Defender of Women is pretty vile, at least to my way of thinking, but I will let anyone who is interested judge for themselves. So because this guy appreciates certain transgressive jokes by a professional comedian, he can’t have an opinion about standards of behavior for posters on this board? And what’s with this thing of equating an opinion about misogynistic language with a desire to be “defender of women”? That’s Gamergate bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/126 "2019-08-11T13:39:49Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > I haven’t been able to make myself read every single post here, and maybe this has already been stated, and maybe it isn’t even pertinent, but if you want to know what really makes me want to leave to the Dope, and if I do leave, what it will be about? It isn’t the objectifying lust which forms such a large part of the personalities of many men, being lovingly discussed, by men, over and over again. No. It is the assumption by so many men here, that men are the only ones reading their posts. > > If you wouldn’t say that to a group of female acquaintances, how about not saying it here? Or at least not saying it that way? > > How many OPs are a man asking, “women, please answer this question” usually to do with the utter mysteriousness of women, and being responded to almost entirely by men, with a few faint women’s voices being drowned out? > > Yes, this is why women are leaving. I will probably be out of here really soon, as it is so incredibly angering that nothing seems to get through. > > However I am perfectly sure that those who even know who I am will be glad to see me go. > [@elbows](#): > > QFT I think this endless loop of every voice in a thread being equal and needing addressing is why I’ve mostly drifted over to Twitter, where my voice is lost in a crowd, but I’m reading a lot more diverse commentary. In the end the rancorous children are going to kill the Dope, and I’m not sure much will be done to slow it down. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/127 "2019-08-11T13:41:53Z")
> [@Royal\_Nonesutch](#): > > As enlightened as you so desperately want to appear, I would suggest that posters who might want to find out how deep and sincere your “Wokeness” actually is might take themselves a look at your various impassioned defenses of Louis C.K. and his actions towards women, and about how hilarious you find his “comedic stylings” about adult men sexually abusing young children. > [@CarnalK](#): > > I’m not trying to impress anyone with my wokeness. And your grand ex-pat gadfly act is boring as hell. > [@Royal\_Nonesutch](#): > > I guess this American is just sick of hypocrites talking out of both sides of their mouth depending on their intended audience, something that you seem to have honed into a fine art. > > I invite anyone who cares (which I fully expect to be no one) to investigate. Your statements excusing and defending Louis C.K. combined with the way you then turn around and wrap yourself in the cloak of a staunch Defender of Women is pretty vile, at least to my way of thinking, but I will let anyone who is interested judge for themselves. > [@Acsenray](#): > > And what’s with this thing of equating an opinion about misogynistic language with a desire to be “defender of women”? That’s Gamergate bullshit. **Moderator Note** Let’s dial back the personal jabs. If you want to fight with one another, take it to the Pit. Colibri ---
**Author:** ![Royal\_Nonesutch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecb155/32.png) [@Royal\_Nonesutch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Royal_Nonesutch)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/128 "2019-08-11T13:42:10Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > So because this guy appreciates certain transgressive jokes by a professional comedian, he can’t have an opinion about standards of behavior for posters on this board? > > And what’s with this thing of equating an opinion about misogynistic language with a desire to be “defender of women”? That’s Gamergate bullshit. No, I simply think that someone who passionately defends and champions a man (“Professional Comedian” or no) like the loathesome Louis C.K. while at the same time trumpeting his commitment to women’s issues to be a rank hypocrite, but if the female members of this messagebaord don’t see it that way, that is perfectly their right. (I have heard of Gamergate, but do not know what it means) ETA I just now saw the note from Colibri after posting… ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/129 "2019-08-11T13:48:09Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Fine. So which is worse? Or are they both equally bad? Assuming you cannot order them, then I gave two sets of 3 bad things. One of the bad things overlaps between sets. The other 2 pairings have a clear ordering. Can you tell me which is worse, hate speech or misogyny? Also, are they the same thing or are they different? _Sammy’s Choice_ (2019) Nazi-like forum moderators force a young man to choose between hate speech and misogyny, rather than allowing him to forgo both. Nominated for 12 Derpy awards, including Falsest Dilemma and Best Supporting Navel-Gazer. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/130 "2019-08-11T15:42:50Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > I know for a _fact_ that women sometimes engage in such coarse talk when men are barely in earshot. “I could bounce a quarter off that ass”. (direct quote) Since you know this to be a fact, you must have been well within earshot. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/131 "2019-08-11T15:57:35Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > … > > Yes, this is why women are leaving… Except- I dont think they really are. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/132 "2019-08-11T16:01:09Z")
Why don’t we ask the female moderators to see if they’ve noticed any trends when it comes to female membership and migration? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/133 "2019-08-11T16:18:10Z")
Is whether or not women are leaving even relevant to this? I’m not going anywhere over this, but I don’t like it. Do I have to be willing to take my ball and go home before what I say matters? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/134 "2019-08-11T16:23:34Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Is whether or not women are leaving even relevant to this? I’m not going anywhere over this, but I don’t like it. Do I have to be willing to take my ball and go home before what I say matters? Not at all, and we respect that Op made you feel uncomfortable, and several posters here and in that thread made it clear it was a poor OP. And I hope we will see less and less of that sort of thing. It’s immature. It’s just that several of us dont want a new ‘rule’ which would be very fuzzy and extremely difficult to moderate. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/135 "2019-08-11T16:26:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Which is - _muzzling._ That’s what it is. “You can’t say that” or “you cant say that in that way”\* is\* muzzling. Asking the Mods to tell him to stop is \*muzzling. \* So anybody should be able to say anything at all, in any thread, and in any phrasing? In other words, do you think there should be no moderation at all? I get the impression that there are boards like that. I don’t get the impression that they’re known for serious discussion of a wide variety of topics among a wide variety of community members. > [@BigT](#): > > No, a “horndog” is _attracted_ to women. That is not the same thing as liking them. . Quoted for truth. It’s possible, of course, to both be very horny about women and to genuinely like women. But they’re certainly not synonymous; and they certainly don’t always go together. > [@SamuelA](#): > > In fact, _technically_, Manda Jo is breaking the rules, as this thread is “junior modding”. Huh? It’s a thread about the nature of moderation on these boards. It’s in ATMB, which is where such threads are supposed to go, and where Manda Jo was specifically told to take this discussion. How is that breaking the rules? Not all boards with active moderation have a forum in which to (among other things) discuss moderators’ decisions. I rather like it that this one does. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > If the definition of misogyny is expanded to include this kind of thing, what word do we use for someone like my cousin? He watches red pill YouTube videos and is constantly fulminating about how evil women are and how they are toxic menaces, and he needs to just “go his own way” (MGTOW) and all that crap. To me, that’s misogyny, not having lascivious fantasies about women. Words in English very often apply to a spectrum of behavior. Attempting to insist that they must only apply to the very worst examples is both inaccurate, and unreasonably limiting. Having fantasies is not automatically misogynyst. Talking about those fantasies in ways that reduce women in general, or specific women, to being only targets for such fantasies is. Insisting against contrary evidence that doing so is simply the normal and unavoidable baseline for human society definitely is. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I know women are pissed at this, but honestly as a dude I am, too. Sure, I have sexual thoughts. But it’s absurd to think that I can’t walk and chew gum at once, and that 98% of dudes are unable to function in society if they see someone they find sexually attractive. Men are more capable than that. Emphasizing this idea, again. The OP was also being insulting to men; most of whom are not so under the control of their immediate sexual urges that they become hazards in traffic because women are also out on the street. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/136 "2019-08-11T16:32:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not at all, and we respect that Op made you feel uncomfortable, and several posters here and in that thread made it clear it was a poor OP. And I hope we will see less and less of that sort of thing. It’s immature. > > It’s just that several of us dont want a new ‘rule’ which would be very fuzzy and extremely difficult to moderate. What new rule? The “don’t be a jerk” rule suffices nicely. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/137 "2019-08-11T16:37:08Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > What new rule? The “don’t be a jerk” rule suffices nicely. You then would claim that “_hey nice ass, I’d hit that_” directed to a non-poster, would be a infraction? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/138 "2019-08-11T16:41:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You then would claim that “_hey nice ass, I’d hit that_” directed to a non-poster, would be a infraction? No clue. Depends on the context. I was simply responding to your concern about inventing new rules. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/139 "2019-08-11T16:43:17Z")
At the risk of conferring significance on a subject I find extraordinarily unimportant, (the opinions of horndogs, not the significance of misogyny) I think a separate discussion about the level of disdain for an entire gender needed to be considered to be misogynistic might be worthwhile. Stealth assumptions abound in defense of male discussions of women’s desirability as sex partners in every possible case. The fact that such discussions might have parallels in female discussions about males is not relevant. The audience included when a person is reduced to an object does not moderate the degree of prejudice the stated desire to “hit that” demonstrates. The thought itself is misogyny. That is a thing. A woman is a person. It is a tiny bit more civilized to simply not say it out loud. But it doesn’t change the fact that an undeclared misogynist is still a misogynist. It does allow the rest of us to ignore his viewpoint. Tris * * * Rutting like a weasel is a useful characteristic among weasels. It produces more weasels. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/140 "2019-08-11T16:53:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You then would claim that “_hey nice ass, I’d hit that_” directed to a non-poster, would be a infraction? I’m comfortable with that. Not warnable, perhaps, especially on the first offense, but if, say in a thread in Cafe Society talking about attractive actors, someone says, "I gotta say, when I watch [actress], all I can think is, “'I’d hit that”, I think that’s setting a tone we don’t want, and a note is appropriate. If someone is talking in IMHO about family dynamics, and they are like “It’s awkward going to my family reunions, because my cousin’s wife is HOT and I gotta admit, I’d hit that if I got the chance,” likewise, I think a note is a good idea. I think that sort of language makes it difficult for women to participate in those threads on the same terms as men. Why is objectifying language such a sacred thing? How is it NOT being a jerk? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462.md?page=8)