# Misogyny and Moderation, again **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [August 10, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462 "2019-08-10T16:43:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/141 "2019-08-11T16:59:57Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Except- I dont think they really are. You could try making a poll, comparing it against previous pills. That should demonstrate… Something, right? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/142 "2019-08-11T17:02:53Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I’m comfortable with that. Not warnable, perhaps, especially on the first offense, but if, say in a thread in Cafe Society talking about attractive actors, someone says, "I gotta say, when I watch [actress], all I can think is, “'I’d hit that”, I think that’s setting a tone we don’t want, and a note is appropriate. If someone is talking in IMHO about family dynamics, and they are like “It’s awkward going to my family reunions, because my cousin’s wife is HOT and I gotta admit, I’d hit that if I got the chance,” likewise, I think a note is a good idea. I think that sort of language makes it difficult for women to participate in those threads on the same terms as men. > > Why is objectifying language such a sacred thing? How is it NOT being a jerk? Alternatively “then my cousin said ‘I’d hit that’ about his classmate and I called him out on it”, would not. Context. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/143 "2019-08-11T17:22:32Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > You could try making a poll, comparing it against previous pills. That should demonstrate… Something, right? No. His mind’s made up. [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=21800082&postcount=8](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=21800082&postcount=8) ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/144 "2019-08-11T17:27:55Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Words in English very often apply to a spectrum of behavior. Attempting to insist that they must only apply to the very worst examples is both inaccurate, and unreasonably limiting. But he is not one of the very worst examples. He is not guilty of violence against women as far as I know. That makes him a garden-variety misogynist as I understand the term. Whereas someone who has not expressed hatred against women as a class is just not a misogynist at all, whatever else they may be. > [@Royal\_Nonesutch](#): > > As enlightened as you so desperately want to appear, I would suggest that posters who might want to find out how deep and sincere your “Wokeness” actually is might take themselves a look at your various impassioned defenses of Louis C.K. and his actions towards women, and about how hilarious you find his “comedic stylings” about adult men sexually abusing young children. This is what always happens. The guillotiners become the guillotined. In campaigns to wipe out moral impurity, someone will outflank you eventually. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/145 "2019-08-11T17:55:25Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I’m comfortable with that. Not warnable, perhaps, especially on the first offense, but if, say in a thread in Cafe Society talking about attractive actors, someone says, "I gotta say, when I watch [actress], all I can think is, “'I’d hit that”, I think that’s setting a tone we don’t want, and a note is appropriate. If someone is talking in IMHO about family dynamics, and they are like “It’s awkward going to my family reunions, because my cousin’s wife is HOT and I gotta admit, I’d hit that if I got the chance,” likewise, I think a note is a good idea. I think that sort of language makes it difficult for women to participate in those threads on the same terms as men. > > Why is objectifying language such a sacred thing? How is it NOT being a jerk? Because the rule has always been that non-posters can be insulted. Even insults directed at non-posters where it is known that posters hold the exact same views. For example, someone can say “People who want to outlaw abortion hate women and want to return to white male sexual domination” (or something similar) even in a thread where other posters have expressed pro-life views. Religion is talked about as believing in sky fairies. These are strongly held views by posters and is tremendously insulting. They should not be banned or moderated. The remedy for poor speech is better speech. The moderation comes in where a poster insults another poster or uses known pejoratives and hate speech towards groups, not just uncouth ones. So yeah, in response to another poster, why can’t we have a “Why are blacks so stupid?” thread? Ignore the thread, pit the OP, or engage in a slugfest and point out why the OP is incorrect. That’s what we do: fight ignorance. If the OP starts throwing around N-bombs, then yes, that is out of bounds. Moderate that. If “setting a tone we don’t want” is the standard, then almost every post needs moderated under such a revolutionary rule. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/146 "2019-08-11T18:11:54Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > I know for a _fact_ that women sometimes engage in such coarse talk when men are barely in earshot. “I could bounce a quarter off that ass”. (direct quote) And that totally makes it okay? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/147 "2019-08-11T18:22:56Z")
The difference between “n-bombs” and “hit that” is one of degree, not type–in both cases, it’s a matter of language being inherently dehumanizing and serve to make it impossible for members of the group to participate on an even footing: the well has already been poisoned. I’ll happily concede that the n-word’s legacy of violence and oppression makes is especially dehumanizing, but that doesn’t mean it is a special case and it and it alone can be moderated. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/148 "2019-08-11T18:31:09Z")
This “matter of degree” standard leads directly to enforcing ideological purity. Favor a more restrictive immigration policy? Bigot. Critical of all religions but particularly one that is used to harshly oppress women, gays, and atheists? Islamophobic bigot. Etc. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/149 "2019-08-11T18:41:37Z")
No, the unwillingness to accept nuance and belief in absolutes is what creates extremism and ideological purity. Free speech is good? It must be totally free and any limitations on it are just a slippery slope to _1984_. Nuance exists. Degrees exist. We are going to draw a line. We have to decide where it’s at. I am arguing it should be on the far side of “hit that”, because objectifying/dehumanizing language limits the ability of the targeted group to participate in the conversation. I think it should be NOTED. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/150 "2019-08-11T18:44:00Z")
Current events have proven that “good speech drives out bad speech” is false. Exactly the opposite is true, particularly on online forums. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/151 "2019-08-11T18:44:56Z")
Okay, what if instead he had written “All I can think about is how I just wanna grab that ass and get all up in there”? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/152 "2019-08-11T19:01:05Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > The difference between “n-bombs” and “hit that” is one of degree, not type–in both cases, it’s a matter of language being inherently dehumanizing and serve to make it impossible for members of the group to participate on an even footing: the well has already been poisoned. I’ll happily concede that the n-word’s legacy of violence and oppression makes is especially dehumanizing, but that doesn’t mean it is a special case and it and it alone can be moderated. How are women unable to participate in that thread? Argue that the OP (in that thread)'s problem is that he views women he meets as sex objects. Perhaps that is why he cannot have a conversation with his wife, etc. How are you in any way unable to fully participate simply because you are insulted? I participate in all sorts of political threads where posters insult my strongly held beliefs or my motives. Also you keep throwing around “insulting.” That’s never been the standard here unless it is a direct insult at a poster. Hate speech has always been the standard. I’m not going to list them, but those words that are commonly and indisputably understood to be hate speech. “Hit that” is not hate speech by any measure of that term. It’s a pretty shitty thing to say, but the mods will be busy indeed if that is the new standard. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/153 "2019-08-11T19:10:38Z")
I cannot fully participate because I can’t talk about the topic before I first establish that I even have standing to participate in the conversation. I’ve been excluded by the whole thing. And the moderator already WAS busy, did post. He posted a good solid paragraph avoiding the central issue, when he could have just said “knock it off with the objectifying expressions. They are offensive and don’t serve to move the conversation forward”. Why must mods be NEUTRAL on someone being a gross, objectifying jerk? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/154 "2019-08-11T19:23:05Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I cannot fully participate because I can’t talk about the topic before I first establish that I even have standing to participate in the conversation. I’ve been excluded by the whole thing. What does that even mean? What part of the topic made it off-limits for women? If anything, the thread would be helped by women participating. At most, you could say that the thread made you uncomfortable therefore you could choose not to participate. There is no requirement of participating in every thread. If you find it distasteful, why not let those who would chose to participate to have at it while you move onto other threads that you like? Why the need to eradicate these threads that offend you when you have the full power to avoid them? It’s not like this is happening in your living room or something. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/155 "2019-08-11T19:23:23Z")
Manda Jo, I respect your views and opinions and I’m pretty sure at this point I know where you are coming from and how you feel about this… … but I disagree with you. While I agree that some moderation is necessary I feel that you are just this side of too restrictive here. Silencing an viewpoint on this board does not make it go away in the larger world. I would prefer such attitudes to be voiced _and countered_ on this forum. YMMV. These sorts of jerks need to hear that their attitudes are NOT the norm instead of us driving them away, at which point they might wind up on a forum that just acts as an echo-chamber for them. As far as gross… what with threads about prehensile rectums, frying semen, placenta recipes, various medical conditions and skin infections, and so forth “gross” is CLEARLY not a disqualifier around here. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/156 "2019-08-11T19:25:23Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Manda Jo, I respect your views and opinions and I’m pretty sure at this point I know where you are coming from and how you feel about this… > > … but I disagree with you. While I agree that some moderation is necessary I feel that you are just this side of too restrictive here. > > Silencing an viewpoint on this board does not make it go away in the larger world. I would prefer such attitudes to be voiced _and countered_ on this forum. YMMV. These sorts of jerks need to hear that their attitudes are NOT the norm instead of us driving them away, at which point they might wind up on a forum that just acts as an echo-chamber for them. > > As far as gross… what with threads about prehensile rectums, frying semen, placenta recipes, various medical conditions and skin infections, and so forth “gross” is CLEARLY not a disqualifier around here. And just in case I wasn’t clear, I abhor such descriptions of women. I do not support them in any way. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/157 "2019-08-11T19:34:32Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And that totally makes it okay? :dubious: No, but earlier there was a bunch of gender-biased talk. Which, by the way, would also be infractable if the rules were tightened. “The moderation on this board isn’t women-friendly because only _men_ are still moderators”. “Only _men_ are _man-splaining_ in this thread”. Arguably quite biased, a person of any gender should be able to make fair and reasonable decisions and if we truly wanted a world of equality, it would not matter how many men or women were in a discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/158 "2019-08-11T19:44:19Z")
She’s not talking about silencing a viewpoint. She’s talking about rejecting demeaning expressions. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/159 "2019-08-11T19:45:01Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Hate speech has always been the standard. I’m not going to list them, but those words that are commonly and indisputably understood to be hate speech. “Hit that” is not hate speech by any measure of that term. It’s a pretty shitty thing to say, but the mods will be busy indeed if that is the new standard. Ultravires, aren’t you a practicing attorney? Don’t you make your living by arguing over the exact interpretation of statutes, among other things like the meaning of a verbal statement by a witness? If so, you’re a far more credible source as to what “is is” and what hate speech is. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2019, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462/160 "2019-08-11T19:51:05Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I cannot fully participate because I can’t talk about the topic before I first establish that I even have standing to participate in the conversation. I’ve been excluded by the whole thing? Not my forum, of course, but that’s absolute nonsense. If one requires validation before one can speak then one is ceding one’s right to be heard at all. That’s your choice, certainly. But don’t use it as an excuse to dodge an issue. It’s pithy, I know, but I’ve long been fond of the saying, “If you take what they give you, you get what you deserve.” You want to effect change? You want to see new paradigms? Speak loudly and firmly. No one can give you the authority to be self-actualized and possess your own agency. Only you can do that. If you choose not to, then fine. That’s your call and I’ll support you in it. But don’t tell me you need someone else’s permission to speak. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-and-moderation-again/838462.md?page=9)