I don’t think that it would not be possible to start a useful, socially relevant thread that begins with “Hey, whenever I see a young attractive woman, I feel this rush of sexual appetite and I want do do her”, etc.
A lot (for me) kind of depends on whether the post proceeds from there to examine that and ponder it, connect it with something. If it’s just “Yeah, I see her and I’m ready to get busy, ya know, how about them hot women, huh?”, then it does indeed come across as objectifying and prurient and I do agree that the post in question falls into that category.
Saying so is not the same thing as saying “there should never be a post that contains references to being a male person who sees an attractive woman and feels lust for her”. It’s not the same thing as begging for topic-censorship.
I don’t think the OP of the referenced instigating thread was appropriate for the board. But with the same opening sentences a meaningful thread about a lot of different things (subject-object polarized gender roles, #metoo and guys’ defensiveness, or even the vitality of the experience of human sexual lust) could have been generated. But make a point. Have something to say aside from sharing what is an objectifying sexual response.
Fighting ignorance doesn’t include a need for us guys to talk about what behavior or appearance on the part of women makes us feel good in our nether regions. There’s no reason I can see why the mods can’t just say, “dude, we don’t talk about women like that here.” We have a fair number of really smart women who add a great deal to many conversations here through their posts. I don’t like the fact that they feel this site is hostile to them in this way, and I don’t want this sorta shit to drive them away.
This is one of those situations where ‘both sides have a point’ perpetuates the shit that only one side is on the receiving end of. My vote is to have it be board policy: we don’t talk about women like that around here. It’s really just a specific case of the board’s Prime Directive: don’t be a jerk.
I’m a self-identifying SD male. I have those urges. Libido exists.
I also, more and more, have urges to just punch certain people in the mouth, throw a milkshake at their face, scream at them, etc. Doesn’t even take that much! I am quite certain there is a biological component to that aggression, quite certain there is a psychological component, and quite certain there is a social component. But the biological one is there, I am sure of it – that there is some evolutionarily-conferred advantage to the fact that I have that latent aggression and violence available to me. I am sure that is different for men than women, too. I am sure that I could provide you a link to some online medical database about anger and androgen that would identify this.
If I started a thread, without using any hate-speechy slurs or anything, about how I want to direct that violence, and under what circumstances, and toward which people in particular, and how it feels when that happens and what I think, and how it overwhelms me and I just can’t even think straight just because of some tiny thing that sets me off, and how maybe some people wouldn’t understand but hey I know some people would, and how I would think I was less of a person if I didn’t feel that way, I would expect to be moderated. I would expect people to be uncomfortable about that. It would be appropriate for people to be uncomfortable about that, and appropriate for me to be censured for doing that to them. I would not expect to be able to fall back somehow on the fact that, well, I have an endocrine system, so… because that would be fucking stupid.
None of nate’s subsequent posts have been reported, and I have not had the time to read through every post in that thread (busy weekend). I will read through everything in a bit and if I see anything that needs to be moderated, I will take care of it then.
The OP was moderated, although, as has been pointed out, that moderation was not explicit enough. I will attempt to do better moving forward. As for subsequent posts, again, I will be checking through the entire thread soon.
We have been attempting to reduce the misogyny on this board for many months now. My post was not an attempt to create any sort of formal guidelines or any sort of new set of rules. The guideline is don’t be a jerk. I think most people around here understand that crude male locker room type speech said in front of a woman is jerkish behavior, so things like that should not need to be spelled out in great detail.
Again, to clarify, the OP was moderated, just not clearly enough. That was my fault. I thought I was being clear, but obviously I was not. The intent was to moderate it with a mod note and to leave the thread open, exactly as your second paragraph says.
I’m not sure if this is meant as general life advice or specifically for this board, but I’ve certainly seen people make comments that I read at the time as meaning, “I don’t think what you’re saying is appropriate” and get slapped by a mod for junior modding so I wouldn’t be surprised if people are a little gunshy about asserting new paradigms. Also, isn’t this thread exactly what you’re demanding? Manda Jo is describing the paradigm that she wants to see. It’s up to us but mostly you as the arbiters of the board’s tone to determine if that’s the paradigm that you want because we can only be self-actualized and in possession of our own agency within the constraints of the moderating team. Someone who’s banned because they kept reporting misogynists is not going to effectively alter the paradigm.
Thank you to Manda Jo and the others who have spoken up about this. I read nate’s initial post and thought it was crude but unremarkable in that I certainly understand the experience of seeing a particularly attractive man and having my train of thought run off the track. I was surprised to see it so roundly rebuffed by everyone so I appreciate the deeper dive into why it irritated so many people.
That is not linked in the OPs’ original post of this thread. Customary around here to link it. I don’t read every post by every user after that - built in ignore function.
Literal. *I’m a male Ibanez and here’s where I think you’re wrong… *
In light of the miscommunication, I’ll instead recommend a way to be more clear. Since the intention was to tell nate that such language is not acceptable, the post should have started like this:
Moderator Note
nate, such language is not acceptable. The SDMB is not a Penthouse forum.
And it should have ended with
I will allow this thread to stay open. But do not do this again.
In the middle, you can be softer, but keep the beginning and ending parts clear and to the point.
IANAM (I am not a mod,) but I thought the general rules of the Straight Dope are that people are allowed to say unsavory things, or advocate for unsavory viewpoints, as long as they do so in a way that is not flagrantly abusive or profane.
It’s like the discussion from a few months ago about whether we should permit talk about race that was offensive - should such content be banned because it is *expressed *offensively, or because its very *nature *is offensive?
Occasionally I’m overwhelmed by all the change I see in the world. Lots of things shifting, lots to keep up with. It can be a lot.
But not here. Men continue to say disgusting things, women continue to object, other men rush in to explain how the women are wrong, women continue to leave, mods continue to flail around trying to figure out why.
Manda Joe, you are tenacious and I respect that. However, the amount of emotional labour women are expected to do to get men to behave in a non-repulsive way is disheartening.
I seldom come here anymore, which I realize many don’t regard as a loss. However, traditionally I have bought a membership, bought merch, supported other members with actual cash money. But this means nothing in the context of this place. My contribution and discomfort is of less concern than the idea of actually speaking about women in a way that is remotely respectful and not dehumanizing. That’s too much to manage.
In fact, up thread the suggestion is that women should find other boards that are friendlier to women, rather than suggesting that male (some) posters could try to be less piggish.
Ok, good, I’ll do that. Along with at least a dozen other women posters that don’t come here anymore because it’s gross. Oh well, as long as the boys can talk about ‘hitting that, with the ass hanging out’ all is well in SDMB land.
I understand you may think enough is enough, but this is a bit of a harsh way to phrase it after the mod involved has done a mea culpa on not clearly moderating the post in question. It may be too late for some but I think this place will get in line with what you hope pretty soon.
And yet that shitty thread is still open for business and probably will remain so–as for the getting in line bit, would it be terribly on the nose if I suggest that this is a “Jam yesterday, jam tomorrow but never jam today” sort of situation? Yup, it’s gonna be better REAL SOON folks, any day now, yup. Uh huh. I have a list of Durpers who I truly and devoutly wish would hold their breath until that day comes.