# Misogyny, victim-blaming, and the board culture (yet again) **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [November 15, 2019, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504 "2019-11-15T19:37:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2019, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/241 "2019-11-20T18:05:44Z")
IMHO, if someone is reflexively \*always \*labeling a woman’s accusation as false, without even considering the facts in that particular case, there is a strong case to be made that that is misogynistic. But we had another poster upthread who said that posters ought to be punished for questioning or challenging a woman’s claim that she has been the victim of a crime. As someone else pointed out, that would mean that if someone challenged the Duke lacrosse accuser’s story as being flimsy, they ought to be punished on the Dope for such an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/242 "2019-11-20T18:11:47Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > ISTM that there’s some application for those words of yours here as well. And now this thread has become more shocking then the televised impeachment. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2019, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/243 "2019-11-20T18:12:13Z")
There are plenty of ways to express skepticism in a specific account without being misogynistic. The post referenced in the OP utterly failed to do that, for the many reasons already discussed. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2019, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/244 "2019-11-20T18:13:11Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You don’t see this thread, or at least various posts in it, as “trying to legislate other people’s behavior”? I do see that. But the purpose of **Helena330** ’s post was to tell **Scumpop** to adjust his own behavior so that people would stop telling him to “fuck off” in the Pit. The heart of this thread, your own post, was to the point that Dr. Blasey Ford and her allies caused Justice Kavanaugh to be exposed to death threats. Some are taking offense to this and construing your post to imply that Dr. Blasey Ford and others who allege sexual assault should not come forward, or that by doing so these alleged victims are to blame for death threats against the accused. They say this shouldn’t be allowed. To which you respond, “Rather than trying to legislate other people’s behavior, why don’t you modify your own”? Or in this particular vein of posts, we are talking about **SamuelA** ’s opinion which generally attacks Dr. Blasey Ford’s allegation on various grounds. Some take offense to that and say it shouldn’t be allowed because that particular opinion - not necessarily all opinions unfavorable of Dr. Blasey Ford - is misogynist. To which you respond, “Rather than trying to legislate other people’s behavior, why don’t you modify your own”? I’m trying very hard to be on your side here but you aren’t helping. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2019, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/245 "2019-11-20T18:21:28Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I do see that. But the purpose of **Helena330** ’s post was to tell **Scumpop** to adjust his own behavior so that people would stop telling him to “fuck off” in the Pit. As I noted at the time, she completely missed the point. You do too, it seems. I don’t object to being insulted in the Pit. I object to the lazy, boring repetition of variations on “fuck you” and to the lazy, boring, misogynistic repetition of “cunt.” ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/246 "2019-11-20T18:22:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s pretty simple – I propose moderators sanction misogynistic and victim-blaming posts (regarding victims/survivors of sexual assault/rape/etc.). Whether they’re sincere, in “good faith”, out of ignorance, malicious, or otherwise. > > I thought that was already the policy. And I thought the moderators had a pretty good handle on what is “misogyny”. I’m no longer confident that’s the case. Possibly it’s because of the moderation staff turnover, or maybe it’s due to something else. I hope the staff will reconsider their evaluation of this issue. I believe that toleration of the kind of post referenced in the OP could do significant long-term damage to the board. We want the board to be a place where people can discuss any manner of topic. Most of the time that’s great, but some of the times those topics can be offensive and not every topic is everyone’s cup of tea. My first instinct when presented with a type of ultimatum is to escalate. That’s why I usually hold my posts for a while before responding. For me, I’m much more interested and receptive to thoughtful posts from folks like **Helena330** and **Manda JO** , than I am to the more reactionary responses that are often offered. As you say, this is your most important issue, but the persistent efforts to increase what falls under the umbrella of ban worthy ideas is counter-productive in my view. Post reports are very useful - but they only serve to alert moderators to make their own judgments. When everything is reported, with increasing hostility, and where the judgment of the moderation team differs from the more reactionary posters, it builds up a sort of discounting. I’m willing to address any argument on the merits. But I’m told that if I disagree with an individual’s assessment that something is misogynistic, that makes me a misogynist. And since the charge can be leveled at basically anything, it becomes circular and unassailable. That’s not a discussion any longer. ---
**Author:** ![Helena330](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/helena330/32/531_2.png) [@Helena330](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helena330)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/247 "2019-11-20T18:22:45Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > IANAMod and don’t get to make any decisions over who stays and who has to go, but in another recent post, you said this: > > ISTM that there’s some application for those words of yours here as well. That makes no sense. I’m not trying to change anyone’s behavior, but I’m certainly speaking out on when they post misogynistic shit. I’m also expressing my displeasure with how it’s being handled. No one has ever told me to fuck off, here or elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/248 "2019-11-20T18:22:58Z")
\*\*Max - \*\* you’ve said earlier in the thread that you aren’t familiar with HD in particular and his posting history. As someone who is, i can tell you that the behavior that’s frustrating yoh at this moment is not isolated. It is a pattern of behavior and exactly what the rest of us have been complaining about. The fact that, despite you trying to be on HD’s side, you are able to identify his posts as disengenous is very encouraging. We may not always agree, but at least you demonstrate critical thinking and an actual interaction with the posts you are reading. I just wanted to say, I do respect that. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2019, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/249 "2019-11-20T18:26:33Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > We want the board to be a place where people can discuss any manner of topic. Most of the time that’s great, but some of the times those topics can be offensive and not every topic is everyone’s cup of tea. > > My first instinct when presented with a type of ultimatum is to escalate. That’s why I usually hold my posts for a while before responding. > > For me, I’m much more interested and receptive to thoughtful posts from folks like **Helena330** and **Manda JO** , than I am to the more reactionary responses that are often offered. As you say, this is your most important issue, but the persistent efforts to increase what falls under the umbrella of ban worthy ideas is counter-productive in my view. Post reports are very useful - but they only serve to alert moderators to make their own judgments. When everything is reported, with increasing hostility, and where the judgment of the moderation team differs from the more reactionary posters, it builds up a sort of discounting. > > I’m willing to address any argument on the merits. But I’m told that if I disagree with an individual’s assessment that something is misogynistic, that makes me a misogynist. And since the charge can be leveled at basically anything, it becomes circular and unassailable. That’s not a discussion any longer. Reactionary - In political science, a reactionary can be defined as a person or entity holding political views that favour a return to a previous political state of society that they believe possessed characteristics that are negatively absent from the contemporary status quo of a society. I wasn’t aware that there was a previous state of society when women were treated like equals to men. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2019, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/250 "2019-11-20T18:27:17Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > As I noted at the time, she completely missed the point. You do too, it seems. I don’t object to being insulted in the Pit. I object to the lazy, boring repetition of variations on “fuck you” and to the lazy, boring, misogynistic repetition of “cunt.” I saw that too, but whether or not she missed the point is irrelevant for the purposes of quoting her in _this_ thread. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Helena330](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/helena330/32/531_2.png) [@Helena330](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helena330)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2019, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/251 "2019-11-20T18:27:49Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > There have been multiple post reports in this thread. This isn’t my forum to moderate, and given most of the reports were received in in the last 5 hours which for me was when I was sleeping, I think letting the normal process proceed is appropriate. The normal process _isn’t working_, **Bone**. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2019, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/252 "2019-11-20T18:27:55Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > When everything is reported, with increasing hostility, and where the judgment of the moderation team differs from the more reactionary posters, it builds up a sort of discounting. Good of you to own it, but that’s still fucked up. We’ve been told in the past that we’re \*encouraged \*to report posts, and now we find out that no, that just makes it _worse_? Wonderful! ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2019, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/253 "2019-11-20T18:32:27Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > SamuelA - most of your posts in this thread are pretty objectionable, and go far beyond the statement that spawned this thread. Plus, you seem more interested in having a Ford/Kavanaugh discussion rather than one about the board or moderation. While that is the underlying subject of the comment in question, this isn’t the place to rehash that bit. Other posters in this thread have expressed opinions that Ford cannot be blamed in any way for telling her story and there is no evidence that she isn’t being truthful. I am just pointing out that her story, whether or not it is based in truth, is a verbal assault intended to cause severe harm. And it’s rather suspicious how 1 sided it is. Like how every victim of a fight in the E.R. was always minding their own business when 2 guys come out of nowhere and attack. Is every assault victim lying? No, but most probably are. My point was to say that HD has a legitimate point of viewing informing his post and that Ford purposefully attacked kavanaugh with the intent of causing harm. The death threats (both aimed at her and kavanaugh) are a forseeable consequence of her actions. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2019, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/254 "2019-11-20T18:36:56Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > We want the board to be a place where people can discuss any manner of topic. Most of the time that’s great, but some of the times those topics can be offensive and not every topic is everyone’s cup of tea. I certainly understand this. But the post in question wasn’t “on topic”. The topic had nothing to do with Kavanaugh, Ford, or sexual assault allegations in general. I know we’ve rehashed this already, but this is at least one of the sources of our disagreement (and presumably, your other disagreements in this thread, including with the posters you praise as thoughtful below). > [@](#): > > My first instinct when presented with a type of ultimatum is to escalate. That’s why I usually hold my posts for a while before responding. > > For me, I’m much more interested and receptive to thoughtful posts from folks like **Helena330** and **Manda JO** , than I am to the more reactionary responses that are often offered. I don’t know which group you’re slotting me into, not that it particularly matters. I’ve tried to keep my language and tone appropriate for ATMB and hopefully I’ve succeeded. Do you find any of these “thoughtful posts” convincing to you, even a little bit? Has your opinion changed at all due to any arguments in this thread? Do you have any doubt about your initial decision, and for that matter, is this issue under any wider discussion among the staff? > [@](#): > > As you say, this is your most important issue, but the persistent efforts to increase what falls under the umbrella of ban worthy ideas is counter-productive in my view. I’m not suggesting that such views should be “ban worthy”, except in the sense that every rule violation can lead to a ban if egregious, or repeated, enough. > [@](#): > > Post reports are very useful - but they only serve to alert moderators to make their own judgments. When everything is reported, with increasing hostility, and where the judgment of the moderation team differs from the more reactionary posters, it builds up a sort of discounting. > > I’m willing to address any argument on the merits. But I’m told that if I disagree with an individual’s assessment that something is misogynistic, that makes me a misogynist. And since the charge can be leveled at basically anything, it becomes circular and unassailable. That’s not a discussion any longer. I’m not sure if this is directed at me, but I don’t believe disagreeing about whether something said by someone else qualifies as misogyny is necessarily misogynistic. I’ve seen nothing from you as a poster or a moderator that indicates to me that you’re a misogynist. I think you’ve generally been a good moderator, I just disagree (incredibly strongly!!!) on this specific issue, and I still want to hear from as many others in the staff and Doper-dom as are interested in contributing. Maybe someone will make an argument that clicks with some of the moderation staff, if they haven’t already. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/255 "2019-11-20T18:37:47Z")
At this point, I do think it’s reasonable to wonder why the mods don’t have women, minorities and/or the disabled represented amongst their number. I know that we can’t have every viewpoint, but they should at least hear from more than one on the loop. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2019, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/256 "2019-11-20T18:42:35Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > At this point, I do think it’s reasonable to wonder why the mods don’t have women, minorities and/or the disabled represented amongst their number. I know that we can’t have every viewpoint, but they should at least hear from more than one on the loop. How about we go a step further. Unless we have an equal representation of all races and genders this means the mod pool is biased. Let’s actively discriminate against mod applicants who are of over represented races and genders in favor of minorities and women. Who we should lower the bar for. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2019, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/257 "2019-11-20T18:42:36Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > At this point, I do think it’s reasonable to wonder why the mods don’t have women, minorities and/or the disabled represented amongst their number. I know that we can’t have every viewpoint, but they should at least hear from more than one on the loop. **Spice Weasel** used to be a mod, but she left the board. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2019, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/258 "2019-11-20T18:43:05Z")
I’ll add that we can see in real time the damage to the board, including the loss of some really wonderful contributors, done by decisions like this. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2019, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/259 "2019-11-20T18:47:56Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > **Spice Weasel** used to be a mod, but she left the board. All of the POC or women mods, as far as I know, are no longer mods. TubaDiva is an administrator, of course, but I rather think she may be too busy to moderate. “Used to be” isn’t really helpful in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2019, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/260 "2019-11-20T18:48:41Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > At this point, I do think it’s reasonable to wonder why the mods don’t have women, minorities and/or the disabled represented amongst their number. I know that we can’t have every viewpoint, but they should at least hear from more than one on the loop. We used to (so I am told), but apparently **TubaDiva** wants to recruit more moderators anyways. You can head over to the other thread and suggest more diversity in the up and coming expanded mod pool. > [@Overarching board moderation/culure problems](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/overarching-board-moderation-culure-problems/843635/4): > > Yes, we need more moderators in here. ~Max [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504.md?page=14)