# Misogyny, victim-blaming, and the board culture (yet again) **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [November 15, 2019, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504 "2019-11-15T19:37:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2019, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/81 "2019-11-17T20:48:37Z")
> [@Modesty\_Blaise](#): > > Female, sexual assault survivor here. > > Hurricane Ditka assigned CBF a nefarious ulterior motive. You know, like revenge or regret? This may be an unusual motive to try to pin on her (she’s playing politics) but it’s still part of the same old “women lie about rape” that women hear all the time and helps to shut us up about it. > > This is misogyny. > > What Hurricane Ditka posted: > > Probably not. Dr. Blasey Ford and her allies exposed Justice Kavanaugh’s family to death threats because they thought it might help their side in a political squabble. I don’t recall many Democrats saying that was “a pretty shitty thing to do”, so the complaint now rings hollow to me. Sorry. You’d think that remarks by us survivors would merit some acknowledgement and maybe even consideration, but so far, that doesn’t seem to be the case, and maybe that tells us something. I hope I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2019, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/82 "2019-11-17T23:07:32Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I think you read this sentence as showing victim-blaming: > > I have to guess that you think saying “Dr. Blasey Ford and her allies exposed Justice Kavanaugh’s family to death threats” constitutes victim-blaming. In your own words, you characterize that as “assigning the blame for purposefully instigating death threats” to Dr. Blasey Ford. > > But I think you are jumping the gun here. **HurricaneDitka** did not actually imply that Dr. Blasey Ford is to blame for purposefully instigated death threats; rather, it is asserted that she and her allies are to blame for _exposing_ Justice Kavanaugh’s family to those threats. Still reads like victim blaming to me. The distinction between blaming Ford for exposing people to the threats and blaming her for making them herself is a distinction, yes: but it’s still blaming. It’s not a distinction that’s relevant to the question of whether it’s victim blaming. > [@Bone](#): > > The idea that if a woman says something then it should be given more weight I view along the same lines as saying if a woman says something then it should be given less weight. Both are not how I view things. But that’s not, I don’t think, what anybody’s saying. What’s being said is this: > [@nelliebly](#): > > I don’t want my opinions as a woman and an assault survivor to weigh more, but I DO want them to be understood and not dismissed. > [@Bone](#): > > There is always the possibility that I’m wrong. I’ve read what you and others have written and assessed the arguments. I disagree with them. Do you think it’s impossible that you’re wrong? Given the same set of facts, people can come to different conclusions. It’s clear you have a problem with HD and I think that influences your perception… And your own perception is influenced by your own experience and your own perspectives. What I think you may be missing here is that, in most cases, the experience and the perspectives of women in this society differ from those of men. That doesn’t mean that the experience and the perspectives of men don’t matter, or should be ignored. But it does mean that, when multiple people do see a problem, the fact that others don’t see it doesn’t mean that the problem isn’t there. Or, as RTFirefly said: > [@RTFirefly](#): > > I think the difference here is that when shit is thrown, it looks way different depending on whether you’re viewing it from a safe place and seeing it as an isolated instance, or whether it’s thrown in your direction, just like the time before and the time before that… It may not even look like shit to some people; it may look like fertilizer. And in some contexts it may be fertilizer\*. That doesn’t mean it’s not shit to the people having it thrown at them; or that, even if it goes past them and lands on the next person over, it’s not going to still be shit from their perspective. You can argue that a particular bit of shit has sufficient fertilizer value, in a particular context, that the fertilizer value outweighs the shit effect and so it ought to be allowed. But that’s a different argument from the argument that says, in effect, ‘It doesn’t look like shit to me so others are wrong about its being shit.’ \*though the original post being complained of isn’t fertilizer, it’s just a terrible argument; for one thing, it’s assbackwards. Whistleblower laws exist precisely to encourage wrongdoing to be reported. Violating whistleblower laws by naming whistleblowers discourages reporting wrongdoing – just as blaming victims of sexual assault for the distress of those accused discourages reporting wrongdoing. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2019, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/83 "2019-11-17T23:10:45Z")
**Bone** , I like you as a mod. I think you’re one of the best here. But you have a blind spot on this topic. I understand that based on your experience and your reading of HD’s posts, it doesn’t seem misogynistic to you. But I hope you will listen to others and consider that maybe other points of view are valid. Try not arguing this from your perspective; instead look at it from others’. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/84 "2019-11-18T00:06:27Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > I, too, see threadshitting. > [@bucketybuck](#): > > You might think it is honest and obvious, you might even be right, but it was still clearly threadshitting. > > Not that it matters, it seems that the mod has decided he is no longer here. I disagree on threadshitting. Threadshitting implies the thread is too stupid, or for whatever reason, should not have even been posted. The comments in question don’t do that- they are commentary on the quality and nature of the posts not on whether the topic is worth discussing. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/85 "2019-11-18T04:19:45Z")
Let me see if I have this straight then–so if I start a thread about how being kicked in the testicles is nowhere near the kind of big deal men make it out to be and a bunch of other women agree and opine that men are just big whiny babies for making out that nut shots are particularly debilitating and then a man comes in and tells us that we don’t have the requisite experience or wherewithal to put forth an informed opinion on the painfulness of taking a boot to the 'nads then he’s threadshitting. Is that how it works? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/86 "2019-11-18T08:52:52Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > You’d think that remarks by us survivors would merit some acknowledgement and maybe even consideration, but so far, that doesn’t seem to be the case, and maybe that tells us something. I hope I’m wrong. What surprises me is that survivors aren’t furious about those who lie about being abused. ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/87 "2019-11-18T09:42:12Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > What surprises me is that survivors aren’t furious about those who lie about being abused. Probably because those who lie about being abused are exceptionally rare. I don’t believe anything will be done, beyond lip-service, about the misogyny and victim-blaming that occurs on this board. Pity; it’s only done by a virulent few, who manage to stay just within the letter of the rules. Apparently it’s so important to amplify these “conservative” voices\* that chasing off women is quite acceptable. \*“Conservative” because they are actually of the radically reactionary right. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/88 "2019-11-18T09:58:42Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > What surprises me is that survivors aren’t furious about those who lie about being abused. Here on the board? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/89 "2019-11-18T10:17:12Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Here on the board? No, people like Ms Ford. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/90 "2019-11-18T10:22:28Z")
> [@galen\_ubal](#): > > Probably because those who lie about being abused are exceptionally rare. I don’t consider 8% to count as \*exceptionally \*rare, and that appears to be the number the FBI consider provably false. It’s enough, in my opinion, to cast doubt on any unsupported claim, and something that, again in my opinion, actual victims should be furious about. This is not, of course, victim blaming, as these people lying about being raped are not victims. [BBC article with statistics and further links](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45565684). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/91 "2019-11-18T10:56:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, people like Ms Ford. Well, I don’t know about other survivors, but I’m not upset because I don’t think she lied. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/92 "2019-11-18T11:39:48Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > What surprises me is that survivors aren’t furious about those who lie about being abused. Now how come THIS isn’t threadshitting?? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/93 "2019-11-18T11:46:51Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Now how come THIS isn’t threadshitting?? I believe it ties directly into the issue of victim blaming. If the mods disgaree, I’ll drop it. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/94 "2019-11-18T11:51:56Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Well, I don’t know about other survivors, but I’m not upset because I don’t think she lied. She may not have lied, but the accusation is, based on the majority of the evidence, false. It is possible she is mistaken about the identity of the person who assaulted her. That’s certainly far more likely than Kavanaugh assaulting someone he appears never to have met, at a party that appears never to have happened. To continue to believe that Kavanaugh assaulted Ford, you have to ignore every single piece of evidence apart from Ford’s testimony. When that evidence includes testimony from people who Ford claimed would support her, that doesn’t seem to be a logical position to take. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/95 "2019-11-18T12:27:50Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > To continue to believe that Kavanaugh assaulted Ford, you have to ignore every single piece of evidence apart from Ford’s testimony. No, I’m considering Kavanaugh’s testimony as well, which was actually more convincing than anything else. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/96 "2019-11-18T12:37:28Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Threadshitting? I see a very honest assessment of the situation. Brutal, painful, _obvious_ honesty. Yeah, the SDMB really doesn’t like it when women do that. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/97 "2019-11-18T12:54:02Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > You’d think that remarks by us survivors would merit some acknowledgement and maybe even consideration, but so far, that doesn’t seem to be the case, and maybe that tells us something. I hope I’m wrong. I am sorry for your experience. How can I express the following opinions - [ul][li]Dr. Ford’s allegation against Kavanaugh is unsubstantiated.[/li][li]All the witnesses who she alleges were present say they remember no such thing.[/li][li]She is unable to remember exactly where or when the party happened.[/li][li]Dianne Feinstein and/or Anna Eschoo or their respective staffs pushed Ms. Ford’s name into public view for political reasons, even though this exposed both Bret Kavanaugh, and Christine Ford, to possible death threats[/ul]in such a way as to respect your status as a survivor?[/li] Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/98 "2019-11-18T13:02:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I am sorry for your experience. > > How can I express the following opinions - > [ul][li]Dr. Ford’s allegation against Kavanaugh is unsubstantiated.[/li][li]All the witnesses who she alleges were present say they remember no such thing.[/li][li]She is unable to remember exactly where or when the party happened.[/li][li]Dianne Feinstein and/or Anna Eschoo or their respective staffs pushed Ms. Ford’s name into public view for political reasons, even though this exposed both Bret Kavanaugh, and Christine Ford, to possible death threats[/ul]in such a way as to respect your status as a survivor?[/li] > Regards, > Shodan None of those opinions are misogynistic or disrespectful to survivors or women. These opinions are also very, very different from the post in question that was, indeed, misogynistic, victim-blaming, and IMO, contributing to a rape-enabling culture. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/99 "2019-11-18T13:03:04Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > The idea that if a woman says something then it should be given more weight I view along the same lines as saying if a woman says something then it should be given less weight. Both are not how I view things. If we were talking about some random subject, that would make sense. But we are talking about misogyny, something that only women face. They are the experts in the subject, and thus their opinion should hold more weight than any man who isn’t some sort of expert. This isn’t an unusual proposal. Let’s try an unrelated example: If a cis woman was talking about how it felt to be kicked in the balls, and she disagreed with all the men, would you not think she was probably wrong? Finally, I point out that it’s not just women. It’s women who are actual survivors of rape. They are even more likely to be aware of the sorts of tactics used to blame them. Why shouldn’t you give their opinion more weight? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/100 "2019-11-18T13:08:41Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > What surprises me is that survivors aren’t furious about those who lie about being abused. I’ve opened up [a Pit thread just for you](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=885533). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504.md?page=6)