# Misogyny, victim-blaming, and the board culture (yet again) **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [November 15, 2019, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504 "2019-11-15T19:37:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/101 "2019-11-18T13:17:26Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > If we were talking about some random subject, that would make sense. But we are talking about misogyny, something that only women face. Except men who get female-oriented names and insults hurled their way as a cheap way of denigrating them, which wouldn’t be available without misogyny. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/102 "2019-11-18T13:21:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > None of those opinions are misogynistic or disrespectful to survivors or women. These opinions are also very, very different from the post in question that was, indeed, misogynistic, victim-blaming, and IMO, contributing to a rape-enabling culture. You are free to post whatever you like, of course, but ISTM that part of respecting the viewpoint of women and survivors is to let them speak for themselves, rather than jumping in to explain what \*\*you \*\*think. YMMV. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/103 "2019-11-18T13:33:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You are free to post whatever you like, of course, but ISTM that part of respecting the viewpoint of women and survivors is to let them speak for themselves, rather than jumping in to explain what \*\*you \*\*think. > > YMMV. > > Regards, > Shodan Of course, and I welcome anyone and everyone to contribute their opinions. I had no intention of preempting anyone else’s opinion by also sharing mine. Do you recognize the difference in what you posted vs the post in question referenced in the OP, or do they seem the same to you? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/104 "2019-11-18T15:21:36Z")
I would be interested in what the mods think about Steophan’s repeated attempts at hijacking this thread into a debate over Dr. Blasey Ford’s veracity. While he may not have succeeded in hijacking the thread _per se_, he did apparently succeed in bringing the earlier discussion to a standstill, so it’s really six of one. Dammit. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/105 "2019-11-18T15:32:44Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > HD doesn’t blame Ford for death threats - Not in the sense that I think most people understand the usage of the word “blame”. Dude, HD said that Ford exposed Kavanaugh’s family to death threats. It’s about as plain a statement as exists in the English language. HD claimed that Ford directly caused the situation through which Kavanaugh got death threats. The only way to parse this where she less to blame than any other human being on the planet, is to point out that she didn’t personally issue a death threat. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/106 "2019-11-18T17:42:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You are free to post whatever you like, of course, but ISTM that part of respecting the viewpoint of women and survivors is to let them speak for themselves, rather than jumping in to explain what \*\*you \*\*think. > > YMMV. > > Regards, > Shodan Letting women speak for ourselves doesn’t mean not chiming in with the same viewpoint to offer support. There’s a well-known tendency phenomenon where men to ignore (usually unintentionally) what women say while hearing what men say. For a man to say, “Here’s how I understand women view this. I hope they’ll join the conversation and their opinions heard.” is not mansplaining or speaking for women. It’s supportive. Hope this helps. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/107 "2019-11-18T18:19:45Z")
**Moderator Note** > [@Steophan](#): > > I believe it ties directly into the issue of victim blaming. If the mods disgaree, I’ll drop it. Drop it, please. Feel free to take it to another thread if you’d like. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/108 "2019-11-18T18:45:11Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Letting women speak for ourselves doesn’t mean not chiming in with the same viewpoint to offer support. There’s a well-known tendency phenomenon where men to ignore (usually unintentionally) what women say while hearing what men say. For a man to say, “Here’s how I understand women view this. I hope they’ll join the conversation and their opinions heard.” is not mansplaining or speaking for women. It’s supportive. > > Hope this helps. Here’s the thing… **iiandyiiii** ’s credentials for speaking for women, for minorities, for the huddled masses yearning to be free, are exactly the same as mine. He personally knows, and loves, people who fall into those groups. You’re happy because you perceive him as agreeing with and, therefore, _of course_ he deserves to be heard. From here, it still looks like whitemansplaining to me. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/109 "2019-11-18T19:08:06Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Here’s the thing… **iiandyiiii** ’s credentials for speaking for women, for minorities, for the huddled masses yearning to be free, are exactly the same as mine. He personally knows, and loves, people who fall into those groups. You’re happy because you perceive him as agreeing with and, therefore, _of course_ he deserves to be heard. From here, it still looks like whitemansplaining to me. Would you mind explaining what you mean by “whitemansplaining” here? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/110 "2019-11-18T19:12:49Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > huddled masses yearning to be free, It’s such a beautifully written line, let’s remember that it was written “huddled masses yearning to _ **breathe** _ free”. The entire text of **The New Colossus** , written by Emma Lazarus (1849–1887) , about The Statue of Liberty, reads as follows: > [@](#): > > Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame, > With conquering limbs astride from land to land; > Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand > A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame > Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name > Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand > Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command > The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame. > > “Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she > With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor, > Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, > The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. > Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, > I lift my lamp beside the golden door!” Apologies for the hijack. Maybe think about the words when you hear about Mexican children in cages. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/111 "2019-11-18T19:16:33Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Here’s the thing… **iiandyiiii** ’s credentials for speaking for women, for minorities, for the huddled masses yearning to be free, are exactly the same as mine. He personally knows, and loves, people who fall into those groups. You’re happy because you perceive him as agreeing with and, therefore, _of course_ he deserves to be heard. From here, it still looks like whitemansplaining to me. Then clearly you either have difficulties seeing the differences, or you don’t understand what mansplaining is. Nobody said **iiandyiiii** ’s credentials are better than yours. Are you saying anyone who agrees with women or minorities is mansplaining? If so, you’re clearly unclear on the whole concept. Or are you trying to mansplain mansplaining to me? :dubious: It takes two sides to debate. It only takes one person to bring the debate down to where it’s difficult to focus on the issues. Maybe some people are too tone deaf to discern the difference between the method and the message. Maybe it’s harder for them to distinguish between a substantive, civilized debate and the kind the rest of us are complaining about. Maybe that’s why they tend to caricature us as sensitive snowflakes who want to stifle debate. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/112 "2019-11-18T19:47:34Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Then clearly you either have difficulties seeing the differences, or you don’t understand what mansplaining is. > > Nobody said **iiandyiiii** ’s credentials are better than yours. Are you saying anyone who agrees with women or minorities is mansplaining? If so, you’re clearly unclear on the whole concept. Or are you trying to mansplain mansplaining to me? :dubious: > > It takes two sides to debate. It only takes one person to bring the debate down to where it’s difficult to focus on the issues. Maybe some people are too tone deaf to discern the difference between the method and the message. Maybe it’s harder for them to distinguish between a substantive, civilized debate and the kind the rest of us are complaining about. Maybe that’s why they tend to caricature us as sensitive snowflakes who want to stifle debate. It’s simple. He is a white male. If he were on the opposite side of the issue as you, you’d be substantially less likely to be taking up for him now. It comes down to nothing more than you believe yourself to be right and since he agrees with you he is right too. All that noise about people seeing the same set of circumstances and drawing different decisions? It’s inconvenient is what it is. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/113 "2019-11-18T19:51:41Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > It’s simple. He is a white male. If he were on the opposite side of the issue as you, you’d be substantially less likely to be taking up for him now. It comes down to nothing more than you believe yourself to be right and since he agrees with you he is right too. All that noise about people seeing the same set of circumstances and drawing different decisions? It’s inconvenient is what it is. No, see, because **nelliebly** , like other reasonable people, weighs arguments based on their merit, not based on who makes them. You _do_ understand that “mansplaining” doesn’t mean simply mean “men talking” – right? I mean, if that’s what you think mansplaining is, no wonder you act the way you do, but the solution is to educate yourself, not spew nonsense all over any thread you can get your hands on. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/114 "2019-11-18T19:57:21Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > It’s simple. He is a white male. If he were on the opposite side of the issue as you, you’d be substantially less likely to be taking up for him now. Surprising that. When a man agrees with women about what it’s like to be a woman, women support him. And when a man disagrees with women about what it’s like to be a woman, women don’t support him. Are you trying to make some point other than proving to everyone that you don’t understand how people work? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/115 "2019-11-18T20:46:49Z")
I guess if a misogynist calls a woman “sweettits,” **Scumpup** would be strongly against any man objecting to such behavior because “whitemansplaining.” I think his point is consistent with Martin Niemoller’s famous request for people to strenuously avoid speaking out on behalf of others. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/116 "2019-11-18T20:57:56Z")
You guess wrongly. Your guesses about me are likely consistently wrong. Since you perceive me on the “wrong” side of several hot button issues here, you are predisposed to attribute all the worst motivations and personal characteristics to me. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/117 "2019-11-18T21:14:13Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Except men who get female-oriented names and insults hurled their way as a cheap way of denigrating them, which wouldn’t be available without misogyny. I would argue that, while the statement would be misogynist, the misogyny itself is not directed towards the man. Just like, if someone called a white person the n-word, the racism is not towards the white guy, but towards black people. I would call the actual insult one of toxic masculinity, not misogyny. But, even if this does count, it doesn’t change much. That form of misogyny is completely different than the one being discussed here. The misogyny being discussed here is one that does apply exclusively to women, so they remain the experts. I am simply attempting to counter the idea that having a bunch of women tell you something is misogynist means nothing more than if a guy does. **Bone** hasn’t even addressed any of the women’s complaints–he hasn’t replied to them at all. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/118 "2019-11-18T21:22:09Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I am simply attempting to counter the idea that having a bunch of women tell you something is misogynist means nothing more than if a guy does. **Bone** hasn’t even addressed any of the women’s complaints–he hasn’t replied to them at all. As I mentioned previously, I don’t add a significant difference in weight between arguments advanced by women vs. that of men. That being said, I’ve addressed all substantive arguments that have been made thus far. Saying that more weight should be given to women, or looking at volumes are not substantive arguments - they are observations about arguments, not arguments in and of themselves. That I disagree doesn’t mean an argument wasn’t addressed. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/119 "2019-11-18T21:32:56Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > As I mentioned previously, I don’t add a significant difference in weight between arguments advanced by women vs. that of men. That being said, I’ve addressed all substantive arguments that have been made thus far. Saying that more weight should be given to women, or looking at volumes are not substantive arguments - they are observations about arguments, not arguments in and of themselves. That I disagree doesn’t mean an argument wasn’t addressed. If you’ve addressed what I said in post #73, I’ve missed it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2019, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504/120 "2019-11-18T21:34:04Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > As I mentioned previously, I don’t add a significant difference in weight between arguments advanced by women vs. that of men. As a general principle, do you add a significant difference in weight between how group A describes the effect on group A of language about group A, and how group B describes the effect on group A of language about group A? It seems obvious to me. If you and JC tell us that the constant barrage of threads in ATMB about moderator failings is really hurting the morale of the board’s volunteer moderators, and MrDibble and SmartAleq pipe up to say that that’s bullshit and that it doesn’t affect moderator morale, I’m gonna side-eye them. Now, I might decide that the damage to moderator morale is a regrettable consequence of some greater good. But I’m not gonna act like non-mods have just as much insight as mods into how it affects mods, out of some sense of fairness. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/misogyny-victim-blaming-and-the-board-culture-yet-again/843504.md?page=7)