# Mispronunciation/ Poor grammar that bothers you **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 7, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475 "2005-07-07T17:02:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/181 "2013-08-06T19:38:06Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > So how do you feel about “colonel” (or the British pronunciation of “lieutenant”)? Words, especially in English, are quite often not pronounced as they are spelled. Not a big deal. And how do we get “orderv” out of “hors d’oeuvres.” Clearly, the “v” comes before the “r.” One simply must defer to the British. I wish I spoke like they do on the BBC, and/or spoke Received Pronunciation. Also, as somebody else noted, some illogical changes need not open the door to a great many. ---
**Author:** ![want2befree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3e96dc/32.png) [@want2befree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/want2befree)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/182 "2013-08-06T19:42:17Z")
Just heard one right now. Co-worker said “real a tor” for realtor. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/183 "2013-08-06T19:44:59Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > Also, as somebody else noted, some illogical changes need not open the door to a great many. There’s nothing illogical about it. I say and write sherbert. You think the second R doesn’t need to be there, so feel free to say and write sherbet. I won’t care, I promise. But I’ll still be eating sherbert. ---
**Author:** ![MacCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maccat/32/216_2.png) [@MacCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacCat)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/184 "2013-08-06T20:14:38Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I was an adult before I realized it was “sherbet.” Same here. I was pretty shocked when I saw sherbet, looked it up and saw I was wrong. Lot of years wrong but since then, I always say it correctly. I just now did a test on my 5 year old granddaughter to check her pronunciation. I asked her the name of the frozen peach dessert she helped Grandma make the other day and she nailed it. A few years ago, I would have been _very_ confident betting on sherbert. ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/185 "2013-08-06T20:28:00Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > So how do you feel about “colonel” (or the British pronunciation of “lieutenant”)? Words, especially in English, are quite often not pronounced as they are spelled. Not a big deal. I’m British; am aware of the British / American pronunciation difference re “lieutenant”, but did not know that we differed about “colonel”. In the UK, we pronounce the military rank, the same as the word for the edible part of a nut; how do you in America, pronounce it? (There was a comic song all the rage in Britain a hundred years ago – when “nut” or “knut” was current slang for a young dandy and stylish / idle / fashionable man-about-town. Song’s lyrics are the supposed pronouncements of one “Gilbert the Filbert, the Colonel of the Knuts”.) ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/186 "2013-08-06T20:33:44Z")
> [@Mint\_Julep](#): > > Here in the South they are quite common, but there is a man in my office that is slowly trying to drive me insane with his creative sentences. > > Ex: > He dun’ come up here once, now I’m gunna have to call him agin’ > > I aint never seen that before > > I reckon I best git to lunch now. > > He also can’t pronounce certain words… > > Hawaii=“Huh-Why-Yuh” > Dinosaur=“Die-No-Zar” > Immature=“Emma-tear” > > I cant think of many examples now, but gosh, it is like fingernails down a chalkboard! > > Feel free to contribute your own. I think you’re confusing “regional differences of pronunciation and style” with "bad grammar. Prescriptivist! ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/187 "2013-08-06T20:36:03Z")
> [@vontsira](#): > > I’m British; am aware of the British / American pronunciation difference re “lieutenant”, but did not know that we differed about “colonel”. In the UK, we pronounce the military rank, the same as the word for the edible part of a nut; how do you in America, pronounce it? As far as I know, we pronounce it similarly. I believe the british/american split referred only to lieutenant, not colonel as well. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/188 "2013-08-06T20:41:29Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > It’s really not. Got a cite for that? I don’t have my texts at hand, but here are the first 6 google hits, all of which agree with me (but use the technical terms “restrictive” and “unrestrictive” rather than “definitive” and “descriptive”.) > **[Home](https://www.quickanddirtytips.com)** > > A podcast network and website to help you do things better. Money, grammar, mental health, curiosity, and more - we've got you covered. > **[That vs. Which - DAILY WRITING TIPS](https://www.dailywritingtips.com/that-vs-which/)** > > One of our readers, Justin, recently wrote to ask: > **[Illinois Tech | Illinois Institute of Technology](https://www.iit.edu/)** > > Ranked among the best in the U.S., Illinois Tech empowers students with hands-on learning, diverse programs, and a high career-placement rate. Elevate your [http://www.prdaily.com/Main/Articles/That\_vs\_Which\_Easy\_tips\_for\_determining\_when\_to\_us\_8522.aspx](http://www.prdaily.com/Main/Articles/That_vs_Which_Easy_tips_for_determining_when_to_us_8522.aspx) [http://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/2012/01/that-versus-which.html](http://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/2012/01/that-versus-which.html) > **[Which or That? | Get It Write Online](https://getitwriteonline.com/which-vs-that/)** > > Confusion arises when "which" or "that" is introduce adjective (or relative) clauses. Learn which one to use and when to add a comma. Can you tell the difference between > [@](#): > > … the balls, which are red … and > [@](#): > > … the balls that are red … I can, and I find the distinction useful. Would you write “the balls which are red” or “the balls, that are red”? Note that while the comma is often used with “which”, it isn’t always. I wouldn’t be surprised to find that there are cases where the two terms are interchangeable, but the most common cases where the two are often confused are covered by the links above. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/189 "2013-08-06T20:43:15Z")
oops ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/190 "2013-08-06T20:45:54Z")
I don’t deny that some people argue that they are needed for separate functions. What you have not demonstrated is that the need is real. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/191 "2013-08-06T20:47:40Z")
> [@want2befree](#): > > Just heard one right now. Co-worker said “real a tor” for realtor. That’s a perfectly cromulent pronunciation. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/192 "2013-08-06T20:48:05Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > It’s really not.No one argues for tossing out all the rules, so you can save your breath. OK, breath saved. > [@](#): > > If native speakers run roughshod over it, that’s prima facie evidence that it’s not a ‘useful’ rule. I disagree. A lot of new usages arise that obscure meaning. This happens for both vocabulary and grammar. Ignorance is generally not a good architect. > [@](#): > > And the Academie Francaise does not rule french with an iron grip. They publish a dictionary and I believe, maybe set some standards for government writing but the average joe frenchman pays as much heed to what they say is correct as they want to. I’ll take your word for it. I thought that publishers like newspapers tended to heed the rules, and their rules were what is taught in school, and preferred for formal writing. All bets are off in a novel, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/193 "2013-08-06T20:51:29Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > I disagree. A lot of new usages arise that obscure meaning. This happens for both vocabulary and grammar. Ignorance is generally not a good architect. Such as? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/194 "2013-08-06T20:52:28Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Such as? The first that occurs to me is the usage of _literally_ to mean “figuratively.” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/195 "2013-08-06T20:56:05Z")
> [@vontsira](#): > > I’m British; am aware of the British / American pronunciation difference re “lieutenant”, but did not know that we differed about “colonel”. In the UK, we pronounce the military rank, the same as the word for the edible part of a nut; how do you in America, pronounce it? We pronounce it the same. My point was words where letters that don’t exist in the word are pronounced. For example, there is no “r” in “colonel” (and where did the second “o” go), just like there is no “f” in “lieutenant” (although British English pronounces one.) ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/196 "2013-08-06T21:02:08Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > The first that occurs to me is the usage of _literally_ to mean “figuratively.” I just won 10 bucks off myself. Can you point to an instance where the use of literally in its traditional sense caused confusion with the use of literally as a general intensifier? Because I can tell you, knowing and using both meanings has never caused me confusion. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/197 "2013-08-06T21:02:24Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Such as? Great idea for a new thread! Maybe tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/198 "2013-08-06T21:03:11Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > Also, as somebody else noted, some illogical changes need not open the door to a great many. So why do you accept “colonel” and “lieutenant” as “some illogical changes,” but “sherbet” is part of the “great many” as opposed to just one of those words that are said differently than they are spelled? People around me say “sherbert.” That’s just the way the word is said, and even sometimes spelled. “Sherbit” sounds stupid to me. If I find myself in another dialect region where “sherbit” is the common pronunciation, then I might start using it. Until then, “sherbert” better communicates the concept I am trying to get across with the people I am trying to talk to. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/199 "2013-08-06T21:07:12Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I don’t deny that some people argue that they are needed for separate functions. What you have not demonstrated is that the need is real. First, you said that good writers no longer follow the rule. Do you have a citation for that? I found plenty of citations for the rule, each of which explains the difference in meaning. Second, the two words imply a difference in meaning. If that’s not useful, then what is? All I can say is that I’ve read text where I wasn’t sure which the author meant, resulting in ambiguity. Per the argument above, I wasn’t sure whether all balls in question were red, or whether the sentence was referring only to those balls which were red. It’s a useful distinction, and it’s poor writing when authors don’t make use of the distinction. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/200 "2013-08-06T21:11:27Z")
I make no statement one way or the other as to what good writers do. Some may follow the rule, some may not. It’s not been one of the things I look for in determining good writing. I would never presume to make assumptions or statements about your ability to comprehend a piece of writing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475.md?page=11)