# Mispronunciation/ Poor grammar that bothers you **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 7, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475 "2005-07-07T17:02:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/281 "2013-08-09T19:09:52Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > If this is really what you think he said, it looks like the answer is “no.” If people using a nonstandard grammar can misunderstand each other and people using a standard grammar can misunderstand people then why are we concluding that the issue in the former case is due to the grammar? ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/282 "2013-08-09T19:25:11Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > Yeah, but until I actually went to the web site to see if “mild” and “hot” varieties even existed, I was trying to hunt down the “hot” version every time I went to a different store. I thought my regular store just didn’t carry the other varieties. > > The “medium” has no heat whatsoever. But Tostitos does offer mild and hot dips, just not in the style you like. You don’t even have to accept **Irishman’s** perfectly reasonable explanation that they are marketing the dip as medium relative to all hypothetical spicy or mild dips. They call medium so you can compare it to their other products if you like. “Ahh, medium. I know their Chunky Salsa - Hot it too spicy for me, but their Chunky Salsa - Medium is perfect. I bet their Salsa Con Queso - Medium will be perfect for my tastes!” Isn’t it absurd on its face to suggest that if you only sell one heat-level of a particular product line, you can’t reasonably explain how hot it is? ---
**Author:** ![want2befree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3e96dc/32.png) [@want2befree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/want2befree)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/283 "2013-08-09T19:45:24Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > nm Does this mean never mind? ---
**Author:** ![want2befree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3e96dc/32.png) [@want2befree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/want2befree)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/284 "2013-08-09T19:46:30Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > “Freshie” is not a word, dadgummit! :mad: [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dadgummed](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dadgummed) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/285 "2013-08-09T19:50:05Z")
Yes, NM is an abbreviation for never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Ronald\_Raygun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c67d28/32.png) [@Ronald\_Raygun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ronald_Raygun)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/286 "2013-08-09T21:04:09Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > “Set” is the word for placing something somewhere. “Sat” is the word for taking the action yourself. I’m aware of this. That’s why the sentence “I’m set in the chair” is a little odd, but rather than striking me as incorrect, it comes across with a childlike – or maybe more accurately a carefree – nuance. There’s definitely something diminutive about it, as though one were a doll, or maybe a gem set in a ring. > [@](#): > > Either “is standing” or “was stood”, but not “is stood”. Standing is the present tense, stood is the past tense. If you did it in the past, use was and past tense, if you are talking about the present, use is and the present tense. This doesn’t account for a lot of constructions, such as: I was standing. I have been standing. I will be standing. (I should correct my earlier post when I called it a gerund; it’s not in these cases. In any case, “standing” on its own is not in any tense.) The roast is done. Chow time! You just missed him. He’s gone! Christ the Lord is risen today, Alleluia! ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/287 "2013-08-10T02:40:09Z")
> [@want2befree](#): > > [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dadgummed](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dadgummed) > 🙂 I’m aware of the dadgummed word, dadgummit! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/288 "2013-08-10T03:07:22Z")
> [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > Guess you could say it’s like “snuck” - in the dictionary because of common usage. How do you **think** words get in the dictionary–do archeologists dig them up in the Olduvai Gorge and make plaster casts of them, shipping them off to the lexicographers? No: 99% of them get in the dictionary because of common usage. Most of the other 1% are technical terms invented by experts in various fields, and the remainder are a hodgepodge of terms. But the most respectable entrance into the dictionary is common usage. > [@Irishman](#): > > It’s an attempt to protect a word that has a legitimate usage that is losing its ability to do that job, the same way really has already lost that ability. Really has long since become ambiguous, too late to fight that battle, but why should we give up on literally? > > I suck at impromptu examples. Well, I’m not asking for impromptu or invented examples. I’m asking for actual cases in anyone’s life where it’s led to actual confusion. > [@](#): > > The real problem is not that it isn’t clear that someone is being hyperbolic - you’re right that most of the time it’s clear they’re exaggerating. The problem is the word loses it’s ability to be used in the cases you actually mean “literally”, the same way “really” has already lost it’s clarity. If you actually mean something happened, you have to go out of your way to emphasize that you mean it really, literally, actually happened, and that you’re not exaggerating. I disagree. Any phrase you use to mean “no, I’m being totally serious,” will be coopted as a rhetorical device, because that makes it a fun rhetorical device. I have never heard anyone use “literally” with its literal meaning and been confused. I think it happens in a vanishingly small number of times, and if we’re interested in efficiency of language, we’ll shut up about complaining about “misuse” of “literally” and just take a moment to clarify in those tiny number of cases where there’s any confusion. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/289 "2013-08-10T03:24:58Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Oh, just that there are general grammatical “rules” that we use natively that we don’t even notice or might not be formally taught in school, and when you teach EFL you learn some of them. I worked as a writing tutor for most of my undergraduate career, and working with ESL students was some of my best fun: I’d have folks coming in writing these wonderful complex papers about film history (for example) with all the jargon used correctly, but they wouldn’t know when to put “the” in front of a noun. That’s something native English speakers do intuitively, and when someone breaks that rule it’s really jarring, but explaining when to use “a” or “the” or to leave them out is difficult. I spent a lot of time reading reference books. My film studies student, after I’d explained a basic rule to him, asked me something like: > [@](#): > > What is the difference between “The postmodern films of the 1970s showed Godard’s influence” and “Postmodern films of the 1970s showed Godard’s influence”? I’ve never been able to figure out an answer to that question, unless it’s that there is no difference. Working that job is what turned me into such a descriptivist. I saw folks write beautiful pieces with plenty of nonstandard uses; I saw folks write amazing pieces with grammatical errors (leaving out prepositions or the like); and I saw people write total gibberish in standard English. It became clear to me that, while real grammatical errors are a problem, and misuse of written conventions can be confusing, smug and self-satisfied pedantry over changes in the language is a waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/290 "2013-08-10T15:18:18Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > If people using a nonstandard grammar can misunderstand each other and people using a standard grammar can misunderstand people then why are we concluding that the issue in the former case is due to the grammar? Just want to add an anecdote on ‘nonstandard grammar.’ I see a fair number of facebook postings by, uh, ‘urban’ youths. I can usually make a sense of what they’re saying, but it ain’t easy, and I’m not always sure. Nothing like the spoken language, which, though full of jargon, vernacular, and patois, still more or less conforms to most of the accepted rules of English. But the ‘written’ word. . . egad! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/291 "2013-08-10T17:46:15Z")
> [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](#): > > Just want to add an anecdote on ‘nonstandard grammar.’ I see a fair number of facebook postings by, uh, ‘urban’ youths. I can usually make a sense of what they’re saying, but it ain’t easy, and I’m not always sure. Nothing like the spoken language, which, though full of jargon, vernacular, and patois, still more or less conforms to most of the accepted rules of English. But the ‘written’ word. . . egad! Why is “urban” in quotes? I don’t understand–are they not really from the city? ---
**Author:** ![Sehmket](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Sehmket](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sehmket)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2013, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/292 "2013-08-11T02:06:58Z")
I’m skipping a few pages to make this comment, so I’m sorry if I’m repeating something, but… I work for Xerox, and the CEO, Ursula Burns, is one of my heroes. She is a black, female engineer, who started as an intern and worked her way up. When she came to our site, I was delighted to see her speak. But, when she pronounced “ask” as “axe,” I made my peace with that pronunciation. I just had to set it aside, and choose to find other things in this world to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2013, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/293 "2013-08-11T02:51:34Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Why is “urban” in quotes? I don’t understand–are they not really from the city? He means ebonics ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2013, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/294 "2013-08-11T04:18:11Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > He means ebonics Ebonics youth? I still don’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2013, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/295 "2013-08-11T06:01:57Z")
ebonics=English used by African-Americans ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2013, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/296 "2013-08-11T07:40:57Z")
> [@Sehmket](#): > > When she came to our site, I was delighted to see her speak. But, when she pronounced “ask” as “axe,” I made my peace with that pronunciation. I just had to set it aside, and choose to find other things in this world to worry about. You’ve probably made your peace with many other manifestations this phenomenon–[metathesis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metathesis_(linguistics)#English)–without even thinking about it, (/pərˈskrɪpʃ(ə)n/ instead of /prəˈskrɪpʃ(ə)n/, perhaps?), although it’s the exact same linguistic process, and no different from the pronunciation of _ask_ you describe. As Wikipedia says: > [@](#): > > Many languages have words that show this phenomenon, and some use it as a regular part of their grammar (e.g. the Fur language). The process of metathesis has altered the shape of many familiar words in the English language, as well. Is there really a reason why _every_ word has to be pronounced _exactly the same_ way by _every_ region and discourse community? It’s funny how we pick and choose the ones to get upset about. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2013, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/297 "2013-08-11T10:32:50Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Ebonics youth? I still don’t get it. OK, I’ll bite. “Urban” has its literal meaning, but it also has a codespeak meaning. It refers to lower income Blacks, particularly the baggy pants with the shorts on display, gangsta wannabes. And while most people think of this culture as “inner city” (hence the appellation ‘urban’), that culture is noot limited to the inner city. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2013, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/298 "2013-08-11T22:51:30Z")
> [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](#): > > OK, I’ll bite. “Urban” has its literal meaning, but it also has a codespeak meaning. It refers to lower income Blacks, particularly the baggy pants with the shorts on display, gangsta wannabes. And while most people think of this culture as “inner city” (hence the appellation ‘urban’), that culture is noot limited to the inner city. So would it be a fair summary of your post to say, “On Facebook I see poor black kids posting, and boy, them black kids sure do talk funny”? ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2013, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/299 "2013-08-11T23:05:44Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So would it be a fair summary of your post to say, “On Facebook I see poor black kids posting, and boy, them black kids sure do talk funny”? Not quite the way you’ve phrased it. I wouldn’t personally refer to late teens to twenty-somethings as ‘kids,’ but that’s just my opinion. And I don’t get an opportunity to hear the way they talk, so I can’t attest to that, but the way they post. . . definitely ‘funny’ for [certain values of ‘funny.’](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/funny) > [@Merriam-Webster](#): > > 1a : affording light mirth and laughter : amusing b : seeking or intended to amuse : facetious > \*\*2: differing from the ordinary in a suspicious, perplexing, quaint, or eccentric way : peculiar —often used as a sentence modifier \ \*\* > 3: involving trickery or deception \ Personally, I wouldn’t call it funny, more like ‘semi-intelligible.’ ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/300 "2013-08-12T00:05:53Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So would it be a fair summary of your post to say, “On Facebook I see poor black kids posting, and boy, them black kids sure do talk funny”? Sigh. I guess I’ll add my two cents. The majority of us don’t type, even in Facebook posts, precisely the way we speak. “Text speak” is beside the point, as most of us recognize it as abbreviated language designed for limited character space. I’m referring to the fact that most of us recognize at least some difference between written communication and informal, verbal conversation, and the two don’t meet on a word-for-word basis. I suspect what **Earl** is referring to is that segment of society (not necessarily “young black”) that appears to deliberately write things _precisely_ they way they would speak, right down to intentional, somewhat-phonetic misspellings. The one I’ve seen that always jumped out at me was spelling the word “the” as “tha”. I don’t think anybody with a second grade education, and lacking severe learning disabilities, would think that “tha” is the correct spelling. It’s one of the simplest and most common words in the English language. Instead, it suggests deliberate, intentional misspelling, and in combination with the nonstandard, yet _consistent_, sentence construction and other questionable spelling typically accompanying the “tha” spelling, it seems to clearly represent an attempt to faithfully render informal, conversational speech into text form. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475.md?page=16)