# Mispronunciation/ Poor grammar that bothers you **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 7, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475 "2005-07-07T17:02:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/301 "2013-08-12T00:53:30Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > I suspect what **Earl** is referring to is that segment of society (not necessarily “young black”) that appears to deliberately write things _precisely_ they way they would speak, right down to intentional, somewhat-phonetic misspellings. I’m not picking on him because he’s frustrated by folks who engage in intentional phonetic misspellings. I’m picking on him because he, unlike you, was speaking necessarily about young black folks. And he apparently knew that was a problematic thing to do, because he put “urban” in quotes–using, in his own words, codespeak. At the point where you find yourself singling out young black people for derision, based on what you perceive as a cultural characteristic, you need to check yourself. If you hesitate to say it clearly without codespeak, maybe it’s a rotten idea to say it in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/302 "2013-08-12T01:31:58Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > At the point where you find yourself singling out young black people for derision, based on what you perceive as a cultural characteristic, you need to check yourself. If you hesitate to say it clearly without codespeak, maybe it’s a rotten idea to say it in the first place. Would you feel the same way if I were to complain about "rich white folks (or wannabe rich white folks) who continually pronounce the “t” in “often” and say “at the present time” instead of “now”? It’s exactly the same kind of affectation, and I personally don’t see any difference between the two. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/303 "2013-08-12T02:37:20Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m not picking on him because he’s frustrated by folks who engage in intentional phonetic misspellings. I’m picking on him because he, unlike you, was speaking necessarily about young black folks. And he apparently knew that was a problematic thing to do, because he put “urban” in quotes–using, in his own words, codespeak. > > At the point where you find yourself singling out young black people for derision, based on what you perceive as a cultural characteristic, you need to check yourself. If you hesitate to say it clearly without codespeak, maybe it’s a rotten idea to say it in the first place. I think you’re overthinking it and being overly sensitive. Political correctness is all well and good, but there is certain slang that has been adopted by a certain social subset, and it may not be entirely comprehensible to outsiders, and they have chosen to include it in their writing. If Texas rednecks started writing using their particular slang, it could be just as unintelligible. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/304 "2013-08-12T02:50:49Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m not picking on him because he’s frustrated by folks who engage in intentional phonetic misspellings. I’m picking on him because he, unlike you, was speaking necessarily about young black folks. And he apparently knew that was a problematic thing to do, because he put “urban” in quotes–using, in his own words, codespeak. > > At the point where you find yourself singling out young black people for derision, based on what you perceive as a cultural characteristic, you need to check yourself. If you hesitate to say it clearly without codespeak, maybe it’s a rotten idea to say it in the first place. Oh, to test the bounds of political correctness, I think we’re getting a little off the reservation here. But thanks for playing, and you can keep the duck. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/305 "2013-08-12T04:28:21Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > Would you feel the same way if I were to complain about "rich white folks (or wannabe rich white folks) who continually pronounce the “t” in “often” and say “at the present time” instead of “now”? It’s exactly the same kind of affectation, and I personally don’t see any difference between the two. Both are a bit peculiar. Only one is a proud (or, in the case of codespeak, not-so-proud) legacy of a history of violent and pervasive discrimination. So no, I wouldn’t feel the same way, because I don’t insist on divorcing analysis of a situation from its history. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/306 "2013-08-12T06:57:28Z")
Does the second sentence mean “Blacks get a pass from me because of slavery and Jim Crow”? Because, you know, saying things clearly without codespeak. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/307 "2013-08-12T13:25:38Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Does the second sentence mean “Blacks get a pass from me because of slavery and Jim Crow”? Because, you know, saying things clearly without codespeak. That’s not what codespeak means, but that’s the lesser of your misunderstandings. To answer your first sentence, are you kidding? THat’s really what you got from what I said? Look, I don’t know if Earl is black or white. He doesn’t get a pass from me, because I’m not issuing passes to speakers based on their skin color. I am saying that there are two traditions (at least) of making fun of people in our country based on racial characteristics. Both, as I said, are peculiar, and maybe “obnoxious” would be a better word than “peculiar.” One tradition–making fun of white people–carries with it a satirical edge sometimes, but otherwise doesn’t really have much of a tradition. One tradition–making fun of black people–is part of the tradition of racial injustice, of denying black people equal participation in society through discriminatory practices. Does anyone get a pass? Well, yeah: people making fun of white people’s speech (whether the mocker is black or white) get a pass other than often being a bit obnoxious. They’re not participating in a rotten tradition. Really, this stuff isn’t complicated. You have the power to figure it out yourself, Malacandra. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/308 "2013-08-12T14:01:35Z")
You misunderstood what I meant by “codespeak” - I was imputing codespeak to _you_ because it seemed to me that you were not speaking plainly when you talked about a “proud (or, in the case of codespeak, not-so-proud) legacy of a history of violent and pervasive discrimination”. Also, I have the power to parse multi-sentence paragraphs, should the need arise again. In particular, I understand that you are saying “Mocking white people’s speech? Obnoxious, but as you please. Mocking black people’s? Not cool, bro,” for reasons not unconnected with slavery and its after-effects. Actually what I found funny was **Mister Rik** ’s assertion that pronouncing the _t_ in _often_ could be seen as an affectation. Where I come from, it’s the accepted educated pronunciation. There are two kinds of people who elide the _t_; the uneducated who slur everything, and the slightly antiquated people who pronounce Ralph as “Rafe”, Malcolm as “Morecombe” and golf as “goff”, who (like the Pirate King and Major-General Stanley) pronounce “often - frequently” the same as “orphan - a person who has lorst his parents”. Nations divided by a common language, and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/309 "2013-08-12T14:44:55Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > You misunderstood what I meant by “codespeak” - I was imputing codespeak to _you_ because it seemed to me that you were not speaking plainly when you talked about a “proud (or, in the case of codespeak, not-so-proud) legacy of a history of violent and pervasive discrimination”. No, I didn’t misunderstand. You the word in a way inconsistent with majority usage–or else you are suggesting I was intentionally obfuscating, which is even stupider. Own it, dude. > [@](#): > > Also, I have the power to parse multi-sentence paragraphs, should the need arise again. In particular, I understand that you are saying “Mocking white people’s speech? Obnoxious, but as you please. Mocking black people’s? Not cool, bro,” for reasons not unconnected with slavery and its after-effects. Yes, that’s what I’m saying. How do you move from that to giving black people a pass? Are you under the misapprehension that white people only mock black people and black people only mock white people or something? ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/310 "2013-08-12T15:58:18Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Actually what I found funny was **Mister Rik** ’s assertion that pronouncing the _t_ in _often_ could be seen as an affectation. [shakes fist] My grandmother was a schoolteacher! [/shakes] Speaking of which, this grandmother (college educated, raised in California) would always correct us if we pronounced “Grandma” without the “d” or if we dropped the “g” from the end of “-ing” words. Other grandmother, high school education, raised in Virginia, would hear us pronouncing those d’s and g’s, and tell us to “Stop that, it sounds silly!” ---
**Author:** ![california\_jobcase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@california\_jobcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/california_jobcase)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/311 "2013-08-12T17:04:10Z")
Here’s another one to get people riled up over. The plural ending -ae is properly pronounced long e (as in eek) in pupae, larvae, antennae, etc. It’s right here in my Thorndike Barnhart Advanced dictionary, as the ONLY pronunciation, so that makes it a fact. 🙂 This was also stressed by all my college biology profs as well. I still don’t get how people get zoo-ology out of zoology. There aren’t enough Os there. ---
**Author:** ![kath94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/67e7ee/32.png) [@kath94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kath94)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/312 "2013-08-12T17:13:36Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Oh, just that there are general grammatical “rules” that we use natively that we don’t even notice or might not be formally taught in school, and when you teach EFL you learn some of them. Like I don’t recall ever being taught how to create comparatives and superlatives in English, but there is a general rule governing how they’re made based on syllable count and the structure of the word. Similarly, I don’t remember ever learning about all those conditional forms in my English lessons, but I natively use them, and when you’re teaching English, you learn there’s four basic conditional forms that follow a certain and convey different meanings. Not to hijack this thread, but I heard an interesting ESL construction back when I worked in a call center. A native Indian speaker (from India Indian, not Native American) was calling to change her flight reservations. Now, we all know what “postpone” means – delay a trip. But she wanted to fly sooner than scheduled, so she called to “prepone” her trip. I completely understood what she meant & thought it was a very creative construction. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/313 "2013-08-12T17:31:50Z")
Interesting. I hadn’t heard “prepone” before, but [Wiktionary](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/prepone) seems to suggest that this is a word in the (or a) Indian dialect of English. I know I’ve heard other interesting constructions and words in Indian flavors of English, but I can’t quite come up with examples right this second. Although, [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_English) seems to have a good collection towards the bottom. “Prepone” is one of the words listed, too. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/314 "2013-08-12T20:42:38Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No, I didn’t misunderstand. You the word in a way inconsistent with majority usage–or else you are suggesting I was intentionally obfuscating, which is even stupider. Own it, dude. I’ll own to not having “codespeak” part of my regular vocabulary, which I guess renders my inability to use it consistent with majority usage entirely explicable without having to drag in stupidity, but it seems the sentence I queried did indeed mean exactly what I thought it meant, so that’s that cleared up. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Yes, that’s what I’m saying. How do you move from that to giving black people a pass? Are you under the misapprehension that white people only mock black people and black people only mock white people or something? Not at all; for instance, and without looking back through this thread to see whom you have been mocking, I neither know nor give a rodent’s rectum whether you yourself are black, white or a delicate shade of coppery gold. I’d stay and talk more, but I think the tap’s dripping. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/315 "2013-08-12T21:14:32Z")
> [@Ronald\_Raygun](#): > > I’m aware of this. That’s why the sentence “I’m set in the chair” is a little odd, but rather than striking me as incorrect, it comes across with a childlike – or maybe more accurately a carefree – nuance. There’s definitely something diminutive about it, as though one were a doll, or maybe a gem set in a ring. You say carefree, I say awkward. > [@](#): > > This doesn’t account for a lot of constructions, such as: > > I was standing. I have been standing. I will be standing. I was not trying to give a full rundown on the word, merely address the two specific cases mentioned. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Well, I’m not asking for impromptu or invented examples. I’m asking for actual cases in anyone’s life where it’s led to actual confusion. Sorry, that’s just not the kind of thing that sticks in my memory. It may or may not cause an actual case of confusion. Usually, the confusion is minor enough that ultimately, it just creates the impression of what happened without the explicit example remaining. I suck at movie quotes, too. > [@](#): > > I disagree. Any phrase you use to mean “no, I’m being totally serious,” will be coopted as a rhetorical device, because that makes it a fun rhetorical device. I have never heard anyone use “literally” with its literal meaning and been confused. I think it happens in a vanishingly small number of times, and if we’re interested in efficiency of language, we’ll shut up about complaining about “misuse” of “literally” and just take a moment to clarify in those tiny number of cases where there’s any confusion. Complaining is more fun. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/316 "2013-08-13T00:19:17Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > Would you feel the same way if I were to complain about "rich white folks (or wannabe rich white folks) who continually pronounce the “t” in “often” and say “at the present time” instead of “now”? It’s exactly the same kind of affectation, and I personally don’t see any difference between the two. Odd, I don’t find any generalization that corresponds to these. For example, my parents, sibs, and I (all whom you might call wannabe rich white folks) don’t pronounce the ‘t’, but my 32-year0old son (a bartender, regular guy, and someone who has a very big vocabulary but can hardly spell his way out of a paper bag) pronounces it. I know a number of other folks who do, but can’t find any common factor among them. Both pronunciations are acceptable; one is just older. Do you know which? The ‘t’ was pronounced, when the spelling was standardized. However, most people were illiterate. The ‘t’ was gradually elided, but the spelling was retained. Pronuncing the ‘t’ isn’t a new thing; it’s an old one. People who repeatedly say stuff like “at the present time” are just people who want to sound educated (but didn’t really get the clue). ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/317 "2013-08-13T00:21:22Z")
A bit OT perhaps, but I admit it bugs me when people use “dichotomy” when they mean “dilemma” or “contradiction”. It was a perfectly good and useful word with a fairly specific meaning. But in the last decade, it’s surged in popularity with meanings that are better conveyed with different words. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/318 "2013-08-13T00:30:22Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > I’ll own to not having “codespeak” part of my regular vocabulary, which I guess renders my inability to use it consistent with majority usage entirely explicable without having to drag in stupidity, but it seems the sentence I queried did indeed mean exactly what I thought it meant, so that’s that cleared up. No, it didn’t. You thought it meant I was giving black people a pass. It didn’t. I explained that. You still don’t understand. Own the problem. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/319 "2013-08-13T11:34:00Z")
> [@california\_jobcase](#): > > Here’s another one to get people riled up over. The plural ending -ae is properly pronounced long e (as in eek) in pupae, larvae, antennae, etc. It’s right here in my Thorndike Barnhart Advanced dictionary, as the ONLY pronunciation, so that makes it a fact. 🙂 This was also stressed by all my college biology profs as well. If your high school experience included Latin class, you pronounce it as in English “pie,” and think those biologists are a bunch of yahoos. If your high school or college experience included advance botany or biology, you pronounce it as in English “see,” and you think those Latin scholars are a bunch of nerdy pedants. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475/320 "2013-08-13T11:51:10Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No, it didn’t. You thought it meant I was giving black people a pass. It didn’t. I explained that. You still don’t understand. > > Own the problem. Own yo’ momma. Or explain the fine shade of distinction between “I think Black people are not to be mocked” and “Black people get a pass from me”. Or just drop the whole silly subject and let people get on with enjoying the thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mispronunciation-poor-grammar-that-bothers-you/311475.md?page=17)