# Miss. police: Open carry laws kept us from arresting shotgun-toting man who terrorized shoppers. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2015, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257 "2015-06-23T16:41:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/181 "2015-06-26T21:07:46Z")
Mine’s “carry concealed.” ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/182 "2015-06-26T21:33:10Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You are really stretching with this one. A business owner has the right to set the standards for people entering the establishment. No shirt, no shoes, no service. Ties must be worn. That sort of thing. Even in states with explicit carry laws, such as Ohio, a business may specify that weapons may not be brought it, regardless of general carry laws. > > If you believe that your claim that a business may not refuse entry to a person bearing a weapon is true, it would be interesting to see an actual example from real life. While a business owner has some right to set standards for patrons of their establishments, that right does not supersede state laws that are contrary to the owners wishes. In Illinois, a state law was created which makes it clear that any business that wishes not to allow firearms on their premise must post a notice to that effect, by their entrances. \*SPRINGFIELD – Illinois State Police Officials today released information on regulatory requirements for concealed carry signage under the Firearm Concealed Carry Act (430 ILCS 66/1, et. seq.). Individuals licensed to carry a concealed firearm under the Firearm Concealed Carry Act are prohibited from carrying a firearm on, or into, any of the prohibited areas listed under Section 65 of the statute. Private property owners may also prohibit individuals from carrying a concealed firearm on, or into, property under their control. Owners of any statutorily prohibited area or private property, excluding residences, where the owner prohibits the carrying of firearms must clearly and conspicuously post the Illinois State Police approved sign, in accordance with 430 ILCS 66/1, at the entrance of the building, premises or real property: HB183, Section 65 (Prohibited Areas) (d) Signs stating that the carrying of firearms is prohibited shall be clearly and conspicuously posted at the entrance of a building, premises, or real property specified in this Section as a prohibited area, unless the building or premises is a private residence. Signs shall be of a uniform design as established by the Department and shall be 4 inches by 6 inches in size…. Please refer to Section 65 (Prohibited Areas) for more information on statutory regulatory requirements for signage as well as where concealed weapons are prohibited. Pursuant to Section 65(d) of the Firearms Concealed Carry Act, signs must be of a uniform design and the Illinois State Police is responsible for adopting rules for standardized signs. The Illinois State Police has proposed rules which require a white background; no text (except the reference to the Illinois Code 430 ILCS 66/1) or marking within the one-inch area surrounding the graphic design; a depiction of a handgun in black ink with a circle around and diagonal slash across the firearm in red ink; and that the image be 4 inches in diameter. The sign in its entirety will measure 4 in x 6 in. The Illinois State Police’s proposed administrative rules allow the design and posting of a larger sign if the property owner believes the entrance of the building, premises or real property requires it. The administrative rules proposed by the Illinois State Police would also permit a larger sign to include additional language. These administrative rules have been filed with the Illinois Secretary of State pursuant to the Illinois Administrative Procedure Act. To download a template of the approved sign for use, visit the ISP website at [www.isp.state.il.us/firearms/ccw](http://www.isp.state.il.us/firearms/ccw) Concealed Carry permit applications will be available on the ISP website by January 5, 2014\*. [http://www.isp.state.il.us/media/pressdetails.cfm?ID=762](http://www.isp.state.il.us/media/pressdetails.cfm?ID=762) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/183 "2015-06-27T02:30:36Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > While a business owner has some right to set standards for patrons of their establishments, that right does not supersede state laws that are contrary to the owners wishes. It’s called trespassing. Private businesses can absolutely ban guns in their stores. It’s not up for debate. I live in an open carry state. Not only will you be arrested but they’ll [shoot your ass dead](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_John_Crawford_III) if you don’t drop the weapon when ordered to. So by all means, come to my state and school us on your knowledge of the law. Your 15 minutes of fame awaits you. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/184 "2015-06-27T03:26:31Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > While a business owner has some right to set standards for patrons of their establishments, that right does not supersede state laws that are contrary to the owners wishes. > > In Illinois, a state law was created which makes it clear that any business that wishes not to allow firearms on their premise must post a notice to that effect, by their entrances. meh “No shoes, no shirt, no service” is generally seen on a posted sign. I made no claim that a business owner could impose stealth rules on his or her own, only that state law does not impose a burden prohibiting an owner from setting standards. Business owners are prohibited from denying service to protected classes of persons, the possession of a weapon does not rise to the level of a protected class. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/185 "2015-06-27T05:05:52Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Ok, so your interpretation of the OP is that this man was preparing to, or actually engaged in, hunting, target shooting, or being at home, while inside a Walmart. Or perhaps he was testing out the shotgun that he brought into the store by loading shells into it while he walked around the store. > > Seriously, this is how you read the OP? Because those points are about as clear-headed as someone responding, “But there are no gun control laws… ON THE MOON!!!” Or one could conceivably argue that there is no firm evidence other than eyewitnesses that the object the man was holding was actually a shotgun: it could have been a long, narrow, rather heavy cake, of the sort that Ace of Cakes could make. And he wasn’t putting shells into it, they were bottles of prescription pills, possibly of a very powerful type that I’m not currently taking that would help me understand what relevance hunting, target shooting, or being at home have to do with being in a Walmart. Thank you, **Ravenman**. I was also flabbergasted by the postings you’re responding to, but wouldn’t be able to construct as cogent and humorous a refutation as you did. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/186 "2015-06-27T17:19:30Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > meh > > “No shoes, no shirt, no service” is generally seen on a posted sign. I made no claim that a business owner could impose stealth rules on his or her own, only that state law does not impose a burden prohibiting an owner from setting standards. Business owners are prohibited from denying service to protected classes of persons, the possession of a weapon does not rise to the level of a protected class. In Illinois, you “may” (your choice) prohibit the carrying of concealed firearms within your business, but you “must post” (not your choice) state approved signage. The burden of posting such a sign belongs to the building’s owner. If you didn’t post the state approved no-firearms sign, state law allows concealed carry. \*PUBLIC SAFETY (430 ILCS 66/) Firearm Concealed Carry Act. (430 ILCS 66/1) Sec. 1. Short title. This Act may be cited as the Firearm Concealed Carry Act. (Source: P.A. 98-63, eff. 7-9-13.) (430 ILCS 66/65) Sec. 65. Prohibited areas. (a-10) The owner of private real property of any type may prohibit the carrying of concealed firearms on the property under his or her control. The owner must post a sign in accordance with subsection (d) of this Section indicating that firearms are prohibited on the property, unless the property is a private residence. (d) Signs stating that the carrying of firearms is prohibited shall be clearly and conspicuously posted at the entrance of a building, premises, or real property specified in this Section as a prohibited area, unless the building or premises is a private residence. Signs shall be of a uniform design as established by the Department and shall be 4 inches by 6 inches in size. The Department shall adopt rules for standardized signs to be used under this subsection. (Source: P.A. 98-63, eff. 7-9-13.)\* > **[430 ILCS 66/  Firearm Concealed Carry Act.](https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=3497&ChapterID=39)** > > Illinois Compiled Statutes Table of Contents ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/187 "2015-06-27T17:22:40Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > In Illinois, you “may” (your choice) prohibit the carrying of concealed firearms within your business, but you “must post” (not your choice) state approved signage. The burden of posting such a sign belongs to the building’s owner. If you didn’t post the state approved no-firearms sign, state law allows concealed carry. Which does not challenge anything I have said. There may be a requirement to post signs, but a business owner still has the right to refuse entry and service to a person carrying a weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/188 "2015-06-27T17:33:14Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > In Illinois, you “may” (your choice) prohibit the carrying of concealed firearms within your business, but you “must post” (not your choice) state approved signage. The burden of posting such a sign belongs to the building’s owner. If you didn’t post the state approved no-firearms sign, state law allows concealed carry. > > \*PUBLIC SAFETY > (430 ILCS 66/) Firearm Concealed Carry Act. > (430 ILCS 66/1) > Sec. 1. Short title. This Act may be cited as the Firearm Concealed Carry Act. > (Source: P.A. 98-63, eff. 7-9-13.) > > (430 ILCS 66/65) > Sec. 65. Prohibited areas. > (a-10) The owner of private real property of any type may prohibit the carrying of concealed firearms on the property under his or her control. The owner must post a sign in accordance with subsection (d) of this Section indicating that firearms are prohibited on the property, unless the property is a private residence. > > (d) Signs stating that the carrying of firearms is prohibited shall be clearly and conspicuously posted at the entrance of a building, premises, or real property specified in this Section as a prohibited area, unless the building or premises is a private residence. Signs shall be of a uniform design as established by the Department and shall be 4 inches by 6 inches in size. The Department shall adopt rules for standardized signs to be used under this subsection. > (Source: P.A. 98-63, eff. 7-9-13.)\* > > [430 ILCS 66/  Firearm Concealed Carry Act.](http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=3497&ChapterID=39) That looks like a criminal statute. What about the hunting regulations, hmmmmmm? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/189 "2015-06-27T19:23:48Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Which does not challenge anything I have said. There may be a requirement to post signs, but a business owner still has the right to refuse entry and service to a person carrying a weapon. I guess the issue will eventually be settled in the appellant court. You can refuse to serve someone because they have a concealed weapon. They may not want to leave until they’ve bought what they came for. You call the police. Assuming this takes place in Illinois, will the police escort the customer off your premise for not violating Illinois law? According to Illinois law, if you want to refuse entrance to someone for carrying a concealed weapon, you must first post the required signage. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/190 "2015-06-27T19:26:14Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > That looks like a criminal statute. What about the hunting regulations, hmmmmmm? You’re allowed to open-carry while hunting. Geez, this ain’t rocket surgery. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/191 "2015-06-27T20:49:14Z")
Can someone summarize the specific claims being made here by each side? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/192 "2015-06-27T21:28:42Z")
As for me, I’m with the chief of police: he says that the guy with the shotgun should have been subject to prosecution. If the chief is correct that the laws are written so that scaring the bejeezus out of everyone in the Walmart (by loading and waving around a shotgun) isn’t actually a crime, then the law is an ass. As far as I can tell, this position differs from **doorhinge** ’s views, which are that people should be allowed to carry a gun while hunting, and that loading a firearm in a Walmart is a good way to test it out. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/193 "2015-06-27T21:29:30Z")
**doorhinge** - Unhinged blather about how someone’s right to open carry trumps every other right in the world, including trespassing laws, business’ rights to refuse service and disturbing the peace/disorderly conduct laws. Everybody else - Nuh-uh! ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/194 "2015-06-27T21:33:28Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > You’re allowed to open-carry while hunting. Geez, this ain’t rocket surgery. :smack: What if I go into **tomndebb** ’s store, which has the proper signage to indicate he doesn’t want firearms in his store (for simplicity’s sake let’s say his store is a Walmart), but I have a valid hunting license, and I’m merely hoping to bag something? It seems absurd that his sign would prevent me from carrying a weapon openly in order to hunt. What am I supposed to do, strangle the quail I might find with my own two hands? Knife them? Hit them with a lead pipe? Those fuckers are fast, I doubt I’d be able to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/195 "2015-06-27T22:56:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Can someone summarize the specific claims being made here by each side? It seems to have started out as an inquiry as to whether loading and racking a shotgun while walking around a WalMart could be covered by some criminal charge such as brandishing or disturbing the peace even in an open-carry state. I would have found that to be an interesting thread. doorhinge’s position appears to be: "Every hunter, and target shooter, is allowed to open carry. How else are they supposed to shoot game, or shoot targets??? You can open carry in your home, or your business. " This, in my mind, is a complete non sequitur that should have simply been ignored by everybody else. However, since then, the thread has made less and less sense, and I’m only reading it out of inertia instead of hoping to learn anything. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/196 "2015-06-27T23:09:25Z")
From the [Mississippi criminal assault statute](http://law.justia.com/codes/mississippi/2010/title-97/3/97-3-7): > [@](#): > > (1) A person is guilty of simple assault if he (a) attempts to cause or purposely, knowingly or recklessly causes bodily injury to another; or (b) negligently causes bodily injury to another with a deadly weapon or other means likely to produce death or serious bodily harm; or **(c) attempts by physical menace to put another in fear of imminent serious bodily harm**; and, upon conviction, he shall be punished by a fine of not more than Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00) or by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than six (6) months, or both… Seems to me like racking a weapon inside a store would at least create probable cause for arrest under subsection (c) of the statute, no? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/197 "2015-06-28T10:45:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Can someone summarize the specific claims being made here by each side? There are only two sides here? ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/198 "2015-06-28T11:07:41Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > You can refuse to serve someone because they have a concealed weapon. Well the idiot isn’t concealing his weapon then, is he? ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/199 "2015-06-28T12:02:39Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > From the [Mississippi criminal assault statute](http://law.justia.com/codes/mississippi/2010/title-97/3/97-3-7): > > > [@](#): > > > > (1) A person is guilty of simple assault if he (a) attempts to cause or purposely, knowingly or recklessly causes bodily injury to another; or (b) negligently causes bodily injury to another with a deadly weapon or other means likely to produce death or serious bodily harm; or **(c) attempts by physical menace to put another in fear of imminent serious bodily harm**; and, upon conviction, he shall be punished by a fine of not more than Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00) or by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than six (6) months, or both… > > Seems to me like racking a weapon inside a store would at least create probable cause for arrest under subsection (c) of the statute, no? Maybe the word “attempts” is the issue. It may come down to intent. Did the man intend “to put another in fear of imminent serious bodily harm”? Was he **attempt** ing to do so; or was he just an idiot playing with his gun? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/200 "2015-06-28T12:28:18Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > You’re allowed to open-carry while hunting. Geez, this ain’t rocket surgery. Oh, hey, that reminds me; is it hunting season in Mississippi? Hm. [Nope](https://www.mdwfp.com/media/7311/hunting_seasons.pdf). So, how do those laws apply here, exactly? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257.md?page=11)