# Miss. police: Open carry laws kept us from arresting shotgun-toting man who terrorized shoppers. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2015, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257 "2015-06-23T16:41:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/141 "2015-06-24T21:01:11Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I sold my car last year. Apparently, I’m a car dealership. _Used_ car dealership. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/142 "2015-06-25T01:53:16Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Yes, Gulfport is not located in rural Montana/Mississippi/Wisconsin. > > I suppose it’s possible that no one in Gulfport owns, or has owned firearms. I suppose it’s possible that no one in Gulfport hunts, plinks, or target shoots either. And the residents couldn’t possibly know anyone who might do those things. I’ve never seen a single hunter walking around Gulfport with a firearm, either, but I’ve never been there. > > I would still like to know what information was passed along to 9-1-1 that made it necessary to dispatch SWAT. I think I am as pro gun as anyone, but I honestly don’t understand your position in this thread. We aren’t talking about carrying pistols for protection, or even open carrying pistols. I support those things. I support them without a need for a state issued license. But carrying an uncased shotgun, racking the slide, and loading it in a public place is certainly something sufficiently unusual that it would scare the shit out of me. I don’t see whose rights are being violated by prohibiting such a thing. I agree that brandishing and assault would be viable charges, at least around here. I don’t see the need to show support for gun ownership by defending these guys who are clearly nut cases. There is not a need for a “never give an inch no matter how extreme” argument. It would be like pro-choice people not being “pure” in their beliefs if the don’t support placing abortion clinics in elementary schools and forcing the kids to watch. One of the best ways to get open carry outlawed is to lock and load fucking shotguns in the middle of Wal-Mart. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/143 "2015-06-25T02:26:07Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Does this particular Walmart sell firearms and ammunition? Do they take returned firearms? Do they sell scopes, chokes, or recoil pads that mount on firearms? > > Does state law allow open carry? > > If state law allows open carry, and there is no legislative provision (law) for businesses to opt out of having firearms on their premises, it would seem to me that you could open carry in a Walmart that sells firearms. > > Is there a state rule or law that requires firearms to carried in a case? A private business can discriminate against someone for any reason except those covered under laws. The 2nd amendment isn’t protected in such a case. This is universal regardless of gun laws. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/144 "2015-06-25T06:03:04Z")
It looks like the 2013 Mississippi Brandish code, **MS Code § 97-37-19** (2013), differs from the one **steronz** linked to in post #16: **MS Code § 97-37-19** (2014) **MS Code § 97-37-19** (2013): If any person, having or carrying any dirk, dirk-knife, sword, sword-cane, or any deadly weapon, or other weapon the carrying of which concealed is prohibited, shall,\*\* in the presence of three or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense\*\*, or shall in any manner unlawfully use the same in any fight or quarrel, the person so offending, upon conviction thereof, shall be fined in a sum not exceeding five hundred dollars or be imprisoned in the county jail not exceeding three months, or both. In prosecutions under this section it shall not be necessary for the affidavit or indictment to aver, nor for the state to prove on the trial, that any gun, pistol, or other firearm was charged, loaded, or in condition to be discharged. This version seems oddly worded and ambiguous to me. Apparently you could threaten two people with a deadly weapon with impunity, but if you rudely dangle you weapon out your zipper in front of three people, you’re in trouble. I suppose both versions give too much legal wiggle room for the guy racking his gun in Walmart for the police to feel confident arresting him without repercussions—but, that’s unfortunate. Did the people who quickly left the store or made their way to the safe room feel threatened by the guy racking shells into his shotgun? I think they obviously did. More importantly, were they justified in feeling threatened by what they saw? IMO, yes they were—I too would feel threatened, and potentially in mortal danger in that circumstance. To me, these are the only facts relevant to this discussion: did the guy bring his own shotgun into the store and rack shells in view of others? Did the observers feel justifiably threatened by the guy’s actions? I believe the answer to both is yes. I think the guy could have been arrested under at least the 2014 version of **§ 97-37-19** ; the police chief felt otherwise. A 2015 version should be expanded to make racking your weapon in a public area unambiguously illegal. I don’t get the common notion that tightening laws making things that the majority of people find offensive, or threatening (so long as protected classes aren’t discriminated against) should be avoided, or in some way erodes our basic freedoms and necessarily leads down a slippery slope toward social anarchy. Brandishing a deadly weapon in public should be against the law in all states, period. I believe the majority of people would welcome that law and the only people it adversely affects are deadly weapon brandishers, and they aren’t a protected class…at least not yet. (I think obscenity laws should be broadened to include overt public displays of sexual fetishism too, like walking your girlfriend on a leash at the mall, but I admit that may not be a majority held belief). I mean, how would you feel if your dear old nana, with the lumbago and weak ticker, was shopping at Walmart for cake mix and icing in order to bake you a birthday cake (it’s not even your birthday, but the poor gal has Alzheimer’s, so she thinks every day is your birthday) and as she rounds the corner in her electric geri-scooter into the _“bake goods”_ aisle, she zips square on into the business end of a 12-guage shotgun, just as it’s being ratcheted? Frightened nana then pops up from her scooter, urinating copiously into her Depends, and attempts to flee from what she perceives as a premature date with the grim reaper. The only problem is that her “fleeing” is akin to a lame turtle trying to outpace a hungry cheetah. Poor nana’s support pantyhose drops to her ankles, she trips, breaking the osteoporotic neck of her left hip’s greater trochanter. She’s fallen and she can’t get up. Your nana’s jitterbugging days are over for good, all because some attention whoring shotgun brandisher wanted to make a scene. Do you understand the scope of this tragedy? That’s right, it means no cake for you. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/145 "2015-06-25T06:09:08Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > _Used_ car dealership. Technically, a scrapyard. Poor thing folded up like an accordion when I hit that pick up truck. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/146 "2015-06-25T12:11:07Z")
So, you also run an automobile wrecking company. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/147 "2015-06-25T15:23:57Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I think I am as pro gun as anyone, but I honestly don’t understand your position in this thread. We aren’t talking about carrying pistols for protection, or even open carrying pistols. I support those things. I support them without a need for a state issued license. > > But carrying an uncased shotgun, racking the slide, and loading it in a public place is certainly something sufficiently unusual that it would scare the shit out of me. I don’t see whose rights are being violated by prohibiting such a thing. I agree that brandishing and assault would be viable charges, at least around here. (post shortened) I would still like to know what information was passed along to 9-1-1 that made it necessary to dispatch SWAT to the Walmart. You assume this was something sufficiently unusual. However, as I understand the poorly vetted media articles, someone open-carried a shotgun into two other businesses before they entered the Walmart. No SWAT team was dispatched to the other businesses. Hmmmm. The Chief says they did nothing illegal. I’ll take his word for that. The Chief said he would like to have arrested them. Much to his credit, the Chief obeyed the laws of Mississippi. If you wish to attempt to change the laws of Mississippi, I’m not going to stop you. Depending on how you write your new law, I may even support you, but I don’t vote in Mississippi so my support won’t carry much weight. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/148 "2015-06-25T15:35:28Z")
> [@Tibby or Not Tibby](#): > > It looks like the 2013 Mississippi Brandish code, **MS Code § 97-37-19** (2013), differs from the one **steronz** linked to in post #16: **MS Code § 97-37-19** (2014) > > **MS Code § 97-37-19** (2013): If any person, having or carrying any dirk, dirk-knife, sword, sword-cane, or any deadly weapon, or other weapon the carrying of which concealed is prohibited, shall,\*\* in the presence of three or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense\*\*, or shall in any manner unlawfully use the same in any fight or quarrel, the person so offending, upon conviction thereof, shall be fined in a sum not exceeding five hundred dollars or be imprisoned in the county jail not exceeding three months, or both. In prosecutions under this section it shall not be necessary for the affidavit or indictment to aver, nor for the state to prove on the trial, that any gun, pistol, or other firearm was charged, loaded, or in condition to be discharged. > > This version seems oddly worded and ambiguous to me. Apparently you could threaten two people with a deadly weapon with impunity, but if you rudely dangle you weapon out your zipper in front of three people, you’re in trouble. (post shortened) Your highlighted (bold) section - “in the presence of three or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense” - suggests that the old, 2013-version required three witnesses to the act. It says nothing about your zipper, or your dangle. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/149 "2015-06-25T15:46:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > A private business can discriminate against someone for any reason except those covered under laws. The 2nd amendment isn’t protected in such a case. This is universal regardless of gun laws. Yes, it depends on what the law actually says. If state law only stated that residents of that state can open-carry firearms within that state, any business that banned firearm carriers from entering their premise would be in violation of that state law. In this example, state law says they can carry. However, many states have passed additional laws that allow individual businesses to decide if they will allow firearms on their premise. If someone were to illegally bring a firearm into a business that chooses not to allow firearms, they can/will be asked to leave, and escorted out by LEO’s if they refuse. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/150 "2015-06-25T15:48:45Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > If state law only stated that residents of that state can open-carry firearms within that state, any business that banned firearm carriers from entering their premise would be in violation of that state law. Where are you getting this from? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/151 "2015-06-25T15:58:23Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > In my experience as an EMT (I’ve been certified for almost 8 years), I’ve had to be present for armed standoffs, people barricading themselves in a house or room threatening suicide, and the like on several occasions. This was in a rural area of Southern Indiana, where guns are commonplace, but still enough to freak people out when they see them. > > It’s been my observation (this is solely for the area I cover…i’m not saying anything about Mississippi’s protocols) that, when a gun is present , SWAT is automatically dispatched. It’s SOP here. Someone barricaded in a house with family, or in a public area has the potential for hostages. And it’s better to have SWAT there, coordinating tactics, and have them not be needed than to need them, and have to wait until they get to a scene. And yet this person had carried into two other businesses before entering the Walmart. There’s a lot missing in this whole scenario. If I feel chest pains, I’m calling for EMT’s. If it’s 03:01, and I see armed men outside of my home, I’m calling the police. If I hear one of the armed men outside of my home take my call, I’m calling EMT’s for my chest pains. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/152 "2015-06-25T16:00:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How about, “There’s a guy in the middle of Walmart loading up a shotgun!” But the same reason doesn’t seem to apply to the other two businesses? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/153 "2015-06-25T16:10:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > At what point(if ever) does your family’s sense of self-preservation kick in? And what does Lil’ Sweetums do when he points the weapon in her face- say “Look at how smooth and clean that barrel is!”? Your faux bravery is _real_ impressive. Maybe it’s because you assume that everyone with a gun is a bad guy, while I know that the vast majority of people with guns are good guys? Did you have any comments pertaining to the Great Debate Thread: _Miss. police: Open carry laws kept us from arresting shotgun-toting man who terrorized shoppers_? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/154 "2015-06-25T16:22:14Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > But the same reason doesn’t seem to apply to the other two businesses? Did they load & rack in the other two places, or just open carry? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/155 "2015-06-25T16:38:09Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Did they load & rack in the other two places, or just open carry? That’s a GREAT question. What actually happened, and who said what, and when? Unfortunately, asking questions has been frowned upon, by some people, in the past. Fortunately, I’m expecting the media to provide answers to our questions, at any moment. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/156 "2015-06-25T16:40:30Z")
It doesn’t matter if the guy brought his shotgun into ten million businesses before going into the Walmart. His actions stand on their own. Name any activity that is potentially criminal, and at the very least is threatening and disruptive, and it doesn’t matter how many times someone has gotten away with it before. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/157 "2015-06-25T19:28:08Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened) > > Your highlighted (bold) section - “in the presence of three or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense” - suggests that the old, 2013-version required three witnesses to the act. It says nothing about your zipper, or your dangle. Are you sure? Because the way I interpreted it, **Mississippi Brandish code MS Code § 97-37-19 (2013)** was specifically alluding to my zipper and the manner in which my penis/deadly weapon dangles forth from it. :smack: I’m relieved to learn that the ordinance was not targeting (clever word choice) me…specifically. Or, perhaps I was poking fun at the inclusion of the word “rude” in a _brandishing a deadly weapon_ ordinance, and highlighting the absurdity of making 3 people being threatened a minimum requirement for enforcement of said ordinance. ---
**Author:** ![Mnemnosyne](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mnemnosyne/32/3347_2.png) [@Mnemnosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mnemnosyne)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/158 "2015-06-25T20:02:16Z")
I’m curious to know what law this chief thinks prevented him from arresting the man. Regardless of brandishing laws, open carry laws, or anything else, the man definitely entered a public place of business in the state of Mississippi and while therein created a disturbance. If the store has been evacuated, a disturbance has been created, regardless of whether that was the man’s intention or not. [http://statutes.laws.com/mississippi/title-97/35/97-35-13/](http://statutes.laws.com/mississippi/title-97/35/97-35-13/) [QUOTE=§ 97-35-13. Disturbance in public place.] Any person who shall enter any public place of business of any kind whatsoever, or upon the premises of such public place of business, or any other public place whatsoever, in the State of Mississippi, and while therein or thereon shall create a disturbance, or a breach of the peace, in any way whatsoever, including, but not restricted to, loud and offensive talk, the making of threats or attempting to intimidate, or any other conduct which causes a disturbance or breach of the peace or threatened breach of the peace, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and upon conviction thereof shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars ($500.00) or imprisoned in jail not more than six (6) months, or both such fine and imprisonment. [/QUOTE] Did the police chief simply forget about the basic charge of disturbing the peace, or is he intentionally being misleading by claiming “If there was something I could have arrested these people for, I would,” or is there some other law that specifically prevents this statute from being applicable? ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/159 "2015-06-25T21:18:40Z")
> [@Mnemnosyne](#): > > I’m curious to know what law this chief thinks prevented him from arresting the man. Regardless of brandishing laws, open carry laws, or anything else, the man definitely entered a public place of business in the state of Mississippi and while therein created a disturbance. If the store has been evacuated, a disturbance has been created, regardless of whether that was the man’s intention or not. > > [http://statutes.laws.com/mississippi/title-97/35/97-35-13/](http://statutes.laws.com/mississippi/title-97/35/97-35-13/) > > Did the police chief simply forget about the basic charge of disturbing the peace, or is he intentionally being misleading by claiming “If there was something I could have arrested these people for, I would,” or is there some other law that specifically prevents this statute from being applicable? That’s what confuses me about this. We’re all looking at the statutes, but could there have been court rulings that set precedents that make it difficult for the police to do anything? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257/160 "2015-06-25T23:11:24Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > It doesn’t matter if the guy brought his shotgun into ten million businesses before going into the Walmart. His actions stand on their own. > > Name any activity that is potentially criminal, and at the very least is threatening and disruptive, and it doesn’t matter how many times someone has gotten away with it before. How do you “get away” with not violating a law that doesn’t exist? Are there any _potentially_ criminal laws on the books that could result in an actual arrest? _All right, buddy. Pull it over. You were very close to exceeding the speed limit, and we don’t allow that in this state._ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/miss-police-open-carry-laws-kept-us-from-arresting-shotgun-toting-man-who-terrorized-shoppers/723257.md?page=9)