# Missing Soccer Team Found Alive in Cave **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 2, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missing-soccer-team-found-alive-in-cave/817173 "2018-07-02T17:03:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missing-soccer-team-found-alive-in-cave/817173/461 "2018-07-16T11:09:06Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …yep. Unsworth punched up. He’s just spent weeks working his ass off, my understanding worked for free, rescuing the boys. Literally risked his life. Watching others risk their lives. Watched another sacrifice his life, too. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missing-soccer-team-found-alive-in-cave/817173/462 "2018-07-16T13:20:15Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > There are many manufacturers of specialist submarine and diving equipment around the world, and any number of large and sophisticated engineering companies. There are also many billionaire entrepreneurs. None of them, except Musk, rushed in unasked with full media coverage. > > Musk wasn’t asked for help. His help wasn’t needed or wanted. He knows nothing about diving equipment or cave diving, and nothing about the conditions in that particular cave and rescue operation. I am in complete agreement with everything you’ve written thus far. > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > He saw an opportunity for self-promotion and took it. He noted the major publicity around the rescue operation, and decided to jump on the bandwagon. That’s all. > > He had no genuine concern for the boys or the rescue. I’m sorry, but you don’t know these things. As I also do not know them, I’m not willing to ascribe the worst possible motivations to someone absent a history of similar motivations and actions. Ignorance on Musk’s part? Sure. More than a bit of Dunning-Kreuger at play? Absolutely. “Sweet! Fuck those kids, I can get my name in the papers”? Sorry, not going there without some evidence. YMMV. > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > If he had had any genuine concern, the first thing he would have done would have been to talk to the people involved and ask them what, if anything, was required. He didn’t. He just went off and did his own irrelevant thing, with huge free publicity in the media, and a potentially negative effect on the rescue operation. Aside from the sentiment expressed in the first 7 words and the notion that he was deliberately grandstanding, I agree that the course you lay out would have been the best and most productive way to go. > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Vern Unsworth was speaking the plain truth - something that few people do to powerful billionaires. Musk’s reaction - to make a vicious, lying personal attack on him - says a lot about Musk’s lack of character. Mr. Unsworth may have been speaking the truth as he knows it, but that doesn’t mean it was necessarily a good thing to say. If more information comes out from others who were there and they say “yeah this guy was a pain and in the way”, I’ll re-assess my opinion of what he said. But certainly we all agree that Mr. Musk’s subsequent remarks were beyond the pale. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missing-soccer-team-found-alive-in-cave/817173/463 "2018-07-16T15:03:54Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > There are also many billionaire entrepreneurs. None of them, except Musk, rushed in unasked with full media coverage. > > Musk wasn’t asked for help. This wasn’t 100% true, though the people who asked for Musk’s help weren’t involved with the actual cave rescue. It was Musk’s Twitter followers who asked Musk to get involved. At first, he wisely begged off … but I guess something took hold later on. Without knowing what Musk was like at the actual scene of the rescue (he was actually there on the ground?), its hard to evaluate Unsworth’s biting remarks. I’d have assumed Musk to be laid back and gracious at the scene, but perhaps it was the case that his presence itself was problematic. Of course … later on, Musk attempted to win the Twitter battle and hit Unsworth way, way too low (assuming no convictions in Unsworth’ past). Musk comes off looking worse than douchey – indeed, observers have to wonder if THAT’S the real Elon Musk rather than the self-effacing guy who makes guest appearances on _Big Bang Theory_. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missing-soccer-team-found-alive-in-cave/817173/464 "2018-07-16T16:00:40Z")
Musk’s defense is that the Thai SEAL divers escorted him into the cave, therefore he must have been welcome. He’s too self-centered to realize that telling people this is admitting that he was taking rescue personnel away from more important tasks. It’s exactly the kind of distraction that Unsworth was complaining about. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missing-soccer-team-found-alive-in-cave/817173/465 "2018-07-16T16:17:45Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > TL;DR: My opinion of both men’s social acumen isn’t very high right now. As a private citizen and a rescue diver, Mr Unsworth doesn’t need any ‘social acumen’. He wasn’t there for the PR opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missing-soccer-team-found-alive-in-cave/817173/466 "2018-07-16T16:19:59Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > As a private citizen and a rescue diver, Mr Unsworth doesn’t need any ‘social acumen’. He wasn’t there for the PR opportunity. As a guy speaking to the media for dissemination to all of society, he does need social acumen, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missing-soccer-team-found-alive-in-cave/817173/467 "2018-07-16T16:44:30Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Musk’s defense is that the Thai SEAL divers escorted him into the cave, therefore he must have been welcome. He’s too self-centered to realize that telling people this is admitting that he was taking rescue personnel away from more important tasks. It’s exactly the kind of distraction that Unsworth was complaining about. Not necessarily. At any given moment, there were dozens of Thai SEALs on rest or standby. Keep in mind that there were reported to be about 110 Thai SEALs involved, not including the many non-SEAL rescue divers. More detail is needed to draw conclusions about any deleterious effects of Musk’s presence. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missing-soccer-team-found-alive-in-cave/817173/468 "2018-07-16T16:48:56Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > bullshit. Unsworth spent six years exploring those caves, Elon spent none. I think one of the comments on Gizmodo said it best: > > "I read a long tweet thread yesterday from a man who worked in rescue missions during earthquakes and other disasters, and he explained how detrimental people like Elon Musk are to rescue efforts. They come in with publicity and fame and slow things down for the real rescue workers. There is a chance that local officials, blinded by the fame and glamour of it all listen to the outsider and further put people in danger. Also, showing up in the cave, which is small and has only necessary people is disruptive and can cause further harm. > > There is a good reason this guy is annoyed and blunt. Elon Musk had no reason to be there, and his idiotic “plan”, if authorities had listened to, could have caused deaths." > > IMO Unsworth was far nicer than he needed to be. I read an interesting article about the Chilean mine rescue and it gives a lot of credit to the guy in charge and the system he setup. Basically a core group of brains with controlled flow of information back and forth to larger group to reduce distractions and chaos and also quick elimination of personalities that were hindering collaboration. Ultimately one of the key ideas came from outside of the core group but it happened in a way that wasn’t just 1,000 different things to wade through and burn time. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missing-soccer-team-found-alive-in-cave/817173/469 "2018-07-16T17:35:43Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Not necessarily. At any given moment, there were dozens of Thai SEALs on rest or standby. Keep in mind that there were reported to be about 110 Thai SEALs involved, not including the many non-SEAL rescue divers. > > More detail is needed to draw conclusions about any deleterious effects of Musk’s presence. A world-famous billionaire flies in and tours the cave with an escort, and we need more detail to determine if this was in any way a distraction? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missing-soccer-team-found-alive-in-cave/817173/470 "2018-07-16T17:50:23Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > A world-famous billionaire flies in and tours the cave with an escort, and we need more detail to determine if this was in any way a distraction? Yes. Because I doubt your characterization of it as a nonchalant sight-seeing trip is entirely accurate. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missing-soccer-team-found-alive-in-cave/817173/471 "2018-07-16T19:11:45Z")
It was not a nonchalant sight-seeing trip, and I did not intend to portray it as such. It was a trip to deliver a piece of equipment that had already been rejected, and it was delivered by the CEO. If his only intent was to be helpful, he could have sent a lower-profile engineer who actually knew the functional details of the equipment, instead of a celebrity who is bound to create a distraction. If Musk showed up at your office, can you seriously say he wouldn’t be a distraction at all? What if the receptionist, who wasn’t busy, led him around - then it shouldn’t affect anyone else’s work, right? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missing-soccer-team-found-alive-in-cave/817173/472 "2018-07-16T23:33:32Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Yes. Because I doubt your characterization of it as a nonchalant sight-seeing trip is entirely accurate. unless he could demonstrate the submarine on a technical level to a group that requested it then he was taking up someone’s time that could have been used to escort air tanks and supplies into the cave. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missing-soccer-team-found-alive-in-cave/817173/473 "2018-07-17T00:26:23Z")
Australian news show _4 Corners_ has an hour long report on the rescue. It includes footage from inside the cave and interviews with 2 of the divers who brought the kids out. Listening to the British diver describe the difficulties involved in moving the boys through the water really brought home what an amazing feat it was. > **[Four Corners](https://iview.abc.net.au/show/four-corners)** > > The longest running show on Australian TV, this award-winning current affairs documentary series is a powerhouse of investigative journalism - fearless and forensic, holding power to account through six decades and counting. Hopefully not region-locked. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missing-soccer-team-found-alive-in-cave/817173/474 "2018-07-17T02:27:06Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > unless he could demonstrate the submarine on a technical level to a group that requested it then he was taking up someone’s time that could have been used to escort air tanks and supplies into the cave. Yes, because with over 10,000 people involved, I’m sure that each and every one of them was 100% critical at all times, with no redundancies or multiple coverages at all. Surely every single one of the 10,000 was a vital part of the effort at all moments, 24 hours a day, with not a moments respite. Surely. :rolleyes: Y’all have noticed that I’m not defending Mr. Musk, right? Only criticizing Mr. Unsworth’s choice of words and subject matter for commentary and pointing out that we don’t know anything of Mr. Musk’s time at the site. Oh, and criticizing people who want to rush to condemn others who tried to help or were helping resolve this situation successfully. I admit I’ve done that. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missing-soccer-team-found-alive-in-cave/817173/475 "2018-07-17T03:02:45Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Y’all have noticed that I’m not defending Mr. Musk, right? Only criticizing Mr. Unsworth’s choice of words and subject matter for commentary and pointing out that we don’t know anything of Mr. Musk’s time at the site. My 2 cents: 1 - Unsworth was rude (there really was no reason to do that even if Musk has a giant ego) 2 - Musk was even worse 3 - Musk could possibly have been a useful resource, or could have been a big distraction, nobody knows in advance how it will play out Seems reasonable to give him the benefit of the doubt if the team was still struggling to figure out a plan and if he offered his help in an unobtrusive manner, and he had resources or expertise that were relevant to the situation. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missing-soccer-team-found-alive-in-cave/817173/476 "2018-07-17T03:19:03Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Y’all have noticed that I’m not defending Mr. Musk, right? . could have fooled us, given how much of his water you’re carrying. starting with your insistence on referring to him as “Mr. Musk.” I wager you don’t write for the New York Times, so it’s curious that you follow their style guide. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missing-soccer-team-found-alive-in-cave/817173/477 "2018-07-17T03:35:11Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > My 2 cents: > 1 - Unsworth was rude (there really was no reason to do that even if Musk has a giant ego) > > 2 - Musk was even worse > > 3 - Musk could possibly have been a useful resource, or could have been a big distraction, nobody knows in advance how it will play out > > Seems reasonable to give him the benefit of the doubt if the team was still struggling to figure out a plan and if he offered his help in an unobtrusive manner, and he had resources or expertise that were relevant to the situation. Exactly. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt that he wasn’t simply a selfish boor who strode in like he owned the place and started bossing people around or like an idiot tourist. Some of y’all make good points, but too many are claiming to have divined Mr. Musk’s intent > [@jz78817](#): > > could have fooled us, given how much of his water you’re carrying. starting with your insistence on referring to him as “Mr. Musk.” I wager you don’t write for the New York Times, so it’s curious that you follow their style guide. Let’s go to the quarry and throw stuff down there “carrying water”. Don’t be ridiculous; that’s a baseless accusation of what I clearly am not doing. As for my style, go ahead and look up my 13 year posting history. I’ll be back later to read your acknowledgement that I typically do refer to people with their honorific. I note that my consistent use of the honorific for Mr. Unsworth somehow escaped your notice, eh. As I said, I’ll be back later to read your acknowledgement of how you talked out of your ass. (An exception, and a recent one only, has been made for Trump, as I do not respect him even enough to proffer a minimal honorific.) IMO, it’s curious that you use the repeating digits 88 in the middle of your name, along with multiple-tho-not-consecutive 7s, a “j” and a “z”. _Very_ curious. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missing-soccer-team-found-alive-in-cave/817173/478 "2018-07-17T03:40:51Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Y’all have noticed that I’m not defending Mr. Musk, right? Only criticizing Mr. Unsworth’s choice of words and subject matter for commentary and pointing out that we don’t know anything of Mr. Musk’s time at the site. …its the “both-sides” whataboutism that makes what you said problematic. The kids wouldn’t have been found alive if it weren’t for Unsworth. Unsworth didn’t have any sort of a profile before this. I think it would be entirely fair to say that the sentiment expressed by Unsworth is one that would have been expressed by many, if not all of the rescue team. And unlike us Unsworth was in the perfect position to be able to make the assessment that he made. Unsworth was asked what Musk could do with his submarine. He doesn’t have an obligation to be polite. He isn’t doing PR for the rescue. After everything he has done he had a right to speak his mind and answer honestly. There simply isn’t any comparison. Musk is a billionaire. Unsworth volunteered for this. Musk has a super-high profile and is followed by millions. I keep having to look up the article to remind myself what Unsworth’s name is. Unsworth didn’t insult Musk. He just answered the question as asked. He isn’t an expert on the media, he hasn’t had media training, he just said what he thought. Musk insulted Unsworth. He didn’t just call him a name. He insulted every foreign national who travels and lives in Thailand. He also denigrated the rescue. He challenged Unsworth to produce video of the rescue, he said the water levels weren’t even that high and that he was going to send his sub through the caves to prove that it was fit for purpose. On the one-hand we have a billionaire ego-maniac who said something incredibly insulting about a real-life hero. On the other hand we have a person who put his life-on-hold to rescue 13 people and at worst said something that he maybe shouldn’t have said out loud when put on the spot during an interview. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missing-soccer-team-found-alive-in-cave/817173/479 "2018-07-17T04:00:05Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Unsworth was asked what Musk could do with his submarine. He doesn’t have an obligation to be polite. He isn’t doing PR for the rescue. After everything he has done he had a right to speak his mind and answer honestly. There is a difference between answering honestly and adding language about shoving it up his \*\*\*. He could have been blunt and remained mature by stating “it was useless” or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missing-soccer-team-found-alive-in-cave/817173/480 "2018-07-17T04:06:42Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > IMO, it’s curious that you use the repeating digits 88 in the middle of your name, along with multiple-tho-not-consecutive 7s, a “j” and a “z”. _Very_ curious. it’s my issued student ID when I was in college; first and last initial followed by a sequential number. Nice try. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missing-soccer-team-found-alive-in-cave/817173.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missing-soccer-team-found-alive-in-cave/817173.md?page=25)