# MISSION ACCOMPLISHED redux: Should Dick Cheney be tried for war crimes? Will he be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mission-accomplished-redux-should-dick-cheney-be-tried-for-war-crimes-will-he-be/724499 "2015-07-07T20:08:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mission-accomplished-redux-should-dick-cheney-be-tried-for-war-crimes-will-he-be/724499/101 "2015-07-10T00:43:16Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It’s interesting, or maybe just sad, that we’ve only been discussing torture and not on starting a war of aggression. That’s a war crime, too, and the lies about WMD’s are evidence of it if not crimes in themselves. > > It really isn’t that hard to demand your elected leaders not commit war crimes, people. Not hard at all. It is \*not \*too much to expect, now is it? I’m sure Richard Parker will be along to correct me here, but as far as I know invading Iraq (or Afghanistan), i.e. ‘starting a war of aggression’ wasn’t illegal by US law and even by international law it’s a bit nebulous wrt what the US did (and irrelevent since there is no formal way to punish countries that might break International Law™). I’m on board with the torture thing and think that Obama SHOULD have pursued it, though I understand Richard’s argument about the political consequences, but I’m not seeing how what we did wrt invading Iraq was ‘a war crime’ or ‘illegal’ in any real sense of the word. Feel free to explain why you think it was or is…hell, I’ve been convinced mostly about the torture thing in this thread alone, so why not this as well? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mission-accomplished-redux-should-dick-cheney-be-tried-for-war-crimes-will-he-be/724499/102 "2015-07-10T00:47:23Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I’m sure Richard Parker will be along to correct me here, but as far as I know invading Iraq (or Afghanistan), i.e. ‘starting a war of aggression’ wasn’t illegal by US law and even by international law it’s a bit nebulous wrt what the US did (and irrelevent since there is no formal way to punish countries that might break International Law™). I’m on board with the torture thing and think that Obama SHOULD have pursued it, though I understand Richard’s argument about the political consequences, but I’m not seeing how what we did wrt invading Iraq was ‘a war crime’ or ‘illegal’ in any real sense of the word. Feel free to explain why you think it was or is…hell, I’ve been convinced mostly about the torture thing in this thread alone, so why not this as well? There was no UN mandate/resolution to invade Iraq. In fact they asked us to wait and do inspections. So that is illegal under their laws, correct? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mission-accomplished-redux-should-dick-cheney-be-tried-for-war-crimes-will-he-be/724499/103 "2015-07-10T00:54:56Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > There was no UN mandate/resolution to invade Iraq. Correct. And none to bomb Syria, either, so there’s that to consider. > [@](#): > > In fact they asked us to wait and do inspections. There is no “they” with the authority to tell us that, so no. There is the UNSC, but it was never put to a vote there. > [@](#): > > So that is illegal under their laws, correct? Illegal under the UN charter, yes. I’m sure there are lawyerly ways to argue that it might not be, but it seems pretty clear to me that it was a violation of International Law. But clearly not a violation of US law. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mission-accomplished-redux-should-dick-cheney-be-tried-for-war-crimes-will-he-be/724499/104 "2015-07-10T01:26:59Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It really isn’t that hard to demand your elected leaders not commit war crimes, people. Not hard at all. No, as you demonstrate in this thread. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It is \*not \*too much to expect, now is it? Of course it is. Punishment doesn’t change behavior, especially many years after the event. Surely you realize that war crimes trials are perpetrated by winners on losers. Read about the US carpet bombing of North Korean cities. It was at least as brutal and deadly as what we did to Japanese civilians, but in a complete war of choice. Bush and Cheney were saintly compared to Truman. I’m all for trying to improve behavior by moral suasion. It’s disturbing that a large portion of nationally prominent Republicans are so warlike. But making IMHO ridiculous idle threats to their person makes no political sense. If Hillary Clinton agreed with you, she’d be handing the election to the GOP. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mission-accomplished-redux-should-dick-cheney-be-tried-for-war-crimes-will-he-be/724499/105 "2015-07-10T02:03:35Z")
P.S. to #104: Why do I say Bush and Cheney were saints compared to Truman? Because they are nicer people? No. It’s because politicians follow the public mood, and that mood, despite being rather bellicose, is less tolerant of gratuitous cruelty than in the past. The question for me is whether the public mood would be better yet if left liberals were seen to be the jailers of their foreign policy opponents. Since we haven’t tried it, I can’t know for sure. But my sense is that if you lock up the representatives of a major strain in public opinion, it tends to enhance their influence. Martin Luther King was arrested thirty times. While he didn’t achieve all his aims, he sure achieved some. Ridiculous to group Cheney with King? Today, yes. But in the ElvisL1ves world, a lot of Americans would see them both as martyrs to principle. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mission-accomplished-redux-should-dick-cheney-be-tried-for-war-crimes-will-he-be/724499/106 "2015-07-10T03:21:33Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > What does this mean? > > eta: Oh okay, I think you mean the CIA doctors list of acceptable techniques. It was legally vetted at the time. It was the current administration who declared it torture. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mission-accomplished-redux-should-dick-cheney-be-tried-for-war-crimes-will-he-be/724499/107 "2015-07-10T03:30:41Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > I’m all for trying to improve behavior by moral suasion. It’s disturbing that a large portion of nationally prominent Republicans are so warlike. So if a politician, lets hypothetically call him Obama, were to bomb a hypothetical country like say Yemen, Pakistan, or Libya would you moral compass bend? How do you mentally compare the process of making someone seriously uncomfortable against making someone room temperature? What’s disturbing is the blind support people have for politicians based on which team they play on. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mission-accomplished-redux-should-dick-cheney-be-tried-for-war-crimes-will-he-be/724499/108 "2015-07-10T04:38:04Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It’s interesting, or maybe just sad, that we’ve only been discussing torture and not on starting a war of aggression. That’s a war crime, too, and the lies about WMD’s are evidence of it if not crimes in themselves. > > It really isn’t that hard to demand your elected leaders not commit war crimes, people. Not hard at all. It is \*not \*too much to expect, now is it? Richard Parker and Ravenman have presented a reasonable argument that Cheney might be tried as an accessory to torture if it could be shown that he was in the chain of command. But I think you’re going to have a much harder time building a case that Cheney was responsible for starting a war. Cheney is not the President or a member of Congress. He has no power to start a war. He may have told other people they should start a war and he almost certainly lied to those people but telling lies is different from starting a war. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mission-accomplished-redux-should-dick-cheney-be-tried-for-war-crimes-will-he-be/724499/109 "2015-07-10T11:34:42Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > To my mind the complicating legal factor is the torture was authorised by medical practitioners - they were authorised techniques. > > Now it’s not for Cheney to second guess trained medical professionals and he would argue - I believe successfully - that he didn’t know those authorised techniques wee illegal under international law. And that’s what matters; what did he think in his own mind. As a legal matter, it isn’t really necessary that Cheney knew that a given technique met the legal definition of torture. What is necessary is that he knowingly applied or conspired to apply that technique. A good faith belief that waterboarding was not torture is not legally relevant–it is ignorance of the law, which is not generally an excuse. (Though it is worth noting that I do not believe Cheney thought this stuff wasn’t torture.) Note also that the legal advice, and perhaps even the medical advice, was based on misinformation about the techniques. > [@Magiver](#): > > It was legally vetted at the time. It was the current administration who declared it torture. The OLC was essentially ordered to defend the program, and so it came up with wild legal theories about how something wasn’t really serious injury unless an organ failed, and how it was all justified so long is it worked (in direct contravention of the plain text of the Convention Against Torture, something that would ordinarily trouble conservative jurists). Not even all of the administration’s own lawyers agreed with their analysis, much less lawyers who were not employed by the administration. It would be no defense to you robbing a bank to go hire a lawyer and ask him to come up with a contrived legal justification for your action. Much less for you to hire two lawyers and go with the one who could justify it and ignore the other one. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mission-accomplished-redux-should-dick-cheney-be-tried-for-war-crimes-will-he-be/724499/110 "2015-07-10T12:15:28Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > As a legal matter, it isn’t really necessary that Cheney knew that a given technique met the legal definition of torture. What is necessary is that he knowingly applied or conspired to apply that technique. A good faith belief that waterboarding was not torture is not legally relevant–it is ignorance of the law, which is not generally an excuse. (Though it is worth noting that I do not believe Cheney thought this stuff wasn’t torture.) > > Note also that the legal advice, and perhaps even the medical advice, was based on misinformation about the techniques. I don’t think you’re applying the law correctly. You don’t sit on the permanent members table at the UN and create law that might be used against you. As a permanent member - as out and out imperialist - it’s the little people you are after. They need to e controlled. ‘honestly held belief’ is the key. That’s why The Hague was able to bag the arrogant Milosevich and the occasional tin-pot Africa, and not Blair, Cheney, etc. The latter know the game and engineer other parties to _inform_ them - that way the belief is honestly held. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mission-accomplished-redux-should-dick-cheney-be-tried-for-war-crimes-will-he-be/724499/111 "2015-07-10T13:01:42Z")
> [@XT](#): > > ‘starting a war of aggression’ wasn’t illegal by US law and even by international law It was at Nuremberg and Tokyo. We hanged people for it. Did something happen in the meanwhile? > [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Surely you realize that war crimes trials are perpetrated by winners on losers. We are talking “should” at least as much as “is”. You’re making the “Justice is for the other suckers, not us” argument. Do you understand why that isn’t making much headway? > [@](#): > > Korean … a complete war of choice. Interesting way to describe a “UN police action” in response to an NK invasion of SK. > [@](#): > > Bush and Cheney were saintly compared to Truman. What color is the sky on … never mind. :rolleyes: > [@Magiver](#): > > It was legally vetted at the time. It was the current administration who declared it torture. No, it is the UN Convention Against Torture, to which we are a signatory and therefore constitutes US law, that defines torture. Per Cheney’s instructions, Gonzales and Yoo came up with their own twisted redefinition to narrowly excuse the “enhanced interrogation techniques” that some, including you, are actually defending. > [@Magiver](#): > > So if a politician, lets hypothetically call him Obama, were to bomb a hypothetical country like say Yemen, Pakistan, or Libya would you moral compass bend? Depends on the reasons and justifications, doesn’t it? There is no law, and only a handwringing form of morality, against war itself. > [@](#): > > What’s disturbing is the blind support people have for politicians based on which team they play on. Yes, isn’t it though? :dubious: The “both sides do it” implication there does not stand up well, unfortunately. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mission-accomplished-redux-should-dick-cheney-be-tried-for-war-crimes-will-he-be/724499/112 "2015-07-10T14:46:25Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] It was at Nuremberg and Tokyo. We hanged people for it. Did something happen in the meanwhile? [/QUOTE] Certainly that was one of the broad charges, but most of the folks hung at Nuremberg were for crimes against humanity, war crimes and ‘[participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of a crime against peace](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials)’. A [War of Aggression](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_aggression), however, gives the US at least a few fig leaves of cover, so I doubt that there is any realistic way to bring those charges, especially since it’s pretty obvious that the International Law is pretty much toothless on this score wrt the myriad Wars of Aggression fought since the end of WWII. How many leaders or the leadership of countries guilty them have actually been executed for that crime? Even Saddam, once caught was executed for crimes against humanity and war crimes…at least a quick Google search doesn’t seem to indicate that Wars of Aggression (such as those against Kuwait and Iran) were on the charge list. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mission-accomplished-redux-should-dick-cheney-be-tried-for-war-crimes-will-he-be/724499/113 "2015-07-10T16:28:16Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It was at Nuremberg and Tokyo. We hanged people for it. Did something happen in the meanwhile? No it wasn’t. One of the serious criticisms of the Nuremburg trials was that the crime of “Planning, initiating and waging wars of aggression and other crimes against peace” was only made a crime _ex post facto_ at the trial itself. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mission-accomplished-redux-should-dick-cheney-be-tried-for-war-crimes-will-he-be/724499/114 "2015-07-10T16:39:53Z")
For sure. Nuremburg was ad hoc victors justice. No meaningful international law in relation to war crimes at that point - no UN, of course. 70 years later it’s still BS _law_. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mission-accomplished-redux-should-dick-cheney-be-tried-for-war-crimes-will-he-be/724499/115 "2015-07-10T22:22:49Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Interesting way to describe a “UN police action” in response to an NK invasion of SK. What color is the sky on … never mind. :rolleyes: Maybe you just aren’t aware of what the United States did. Here is a start: > **[Carpet-Bombing Falsehoods About a War That’s Little Understood (Published 2010)](https://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/22/books/22book.html?_r=0)** > > Bruce Cumings writes a revisionist history of the Korean War, which is misremembered, when it is remembered at all. > [@](#): > > The most eye-opening sections of “The Korean War” detail America’s saturation bombing of Korea’s north. “What hardly any Americans know or remember,” Mr. Cumings writes, “is that we carpet-bombed the north for three years with next to no concern for civilian casualties.” The United States dropped more bombs in Korea (635,000 tons, as well as 32,557 tons of napalm) than in the entire Pacific theater during World War II. Alternately, you may think that the strength of the case for a war’s legality is more important than how it is carried out. If so, I disagree. Do you recall that Bill Clinton bombed hapless Iraqi draftees every few weeks? Sounds like just as much of an act of war, to me, as invasion. The difference isn’t the legality, but how it was carried out. Or am I wrong about that, and bombing was legal and invading not? If so, that shows legality is a poor measure of international right and wrong. > [@Dissonance](#): > > One of the serious criticisms of the Nuremburg trials was that the crime of “Planning, initiating and waging wars of aggression and other crimes against peace” was only made a crime _ex post facto_ at the trial itself. That’s such a legalistic criticism. The serious criticism is that the message to murderous dictators is: Keep fighting to the end, and never surrender. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mission-accomplished-redux-should-dick-cheney-be-tried-for-war-crimes-will-he-be/724499/116 "2015-07-10T22:40:50Z")
I think that’s already in their make up. In other news, Operation’s Infinite Reach and Desert Fox were awfully coincidental with Clinton’s impeachment process. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2015, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mission-accomplished-redux-should-dick-cheney-be-tried-for-war-crimes-will-he-be/724499/117 "2015-07-11T00:41:03Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > No, it is the UN Convention Against Torture, to which we are a signatory and therefore constitutes US law, that defines torture. Per Cheney’s instructions, Gonzales and Yoo came up with their own twisted redefinition to narrowly excuse the “enhanced interrogation techniques” that some, including you, are actually defending. Ah we’re following the UN treaties now? Really? It’s OK to slaughter people but make them uncomfortable is somehow bad. Got it. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Depends on the reasons and justifications, doesn’t it? There is no law, and only a handwringing form of morality, against war itself. So we’re espousing Superman now? Truth Justice and the American way? Except for Cheney of course. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yes, isn’t it though? :dubious: The “both sides do it” implication there does not stand up well, unfortunately. yah except for one small detail, I was comparing an interrogation technique that was extremely uncomfortable to the deliberate act of KILLING them. That comparison went sailing over your head. Ooooh, mean old Chaney versus… every President who ever lived. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2015, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mission-accomplished-redux-should-dick-cheney-be-tried-for-war-crimes-will-he-be/724499/118 "2015-07-11T01:21:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > … an interrogation technique that was extremely uncomfortable … It’s telling that you’re forced to use this kind of euphemism when talking about the torture. Do you know why both international law and US law treat torture differently from killings? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mission-accomplished-redux-should-dick-cheney-be-tried-for-war-crimes-will-he-be/724499.md?page=5)