# Missionary/proselytizing work is not per se a wrongful act of aggression **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 19, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missionary-proselytizing-work-is-not-per-se-a-wrongful-act-of-aggression/740866 "2015-12-19T19:20:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missionary-proselytizing-work-is-not-per-se-a-wrongful-act-of-aggression/740866/41 "2015-12-20T15:33:39Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > So, yeah, in principle perhaps it’s wrong to tar all missionaries with the same brush, but they certainly have a PR problem so far as I’m concerned. It’s wrong to condemn all missionary work just for those examples, but you’re gong to do it anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missionary-proselytizing-work-is-not-per-se-a-wrongful-act-of-aggression/740866/42 "2015-12-20T15:40:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If you are talking about people literally being beaten, **Robert163** , then I absolutely agree it’s aggressive. > > I also believe that this is not missionary work “per se,” which is why I made certain to make clear in the OP that I was discussing missionary work itself, and not physical beatings, even though it’s true that in history there have been instances in which missionary work was combined with physical beating. OK But missionary work itself… I live in a town where people regularly tell me things like, god (Jesus) will protect you, god will never give you more than you can handle (plenty of bad luck stories with bad endings prove this to be false), the devil puts women and liquor and lies about evolution in your way to tempt you… I know in 2015 in the USA at large that type of thinking is rare, or, more rare than it was 30 years ago… but in this small town people still do talk, think, act that way… These are the same people who think people halfway across the world need to “hear about jesus”. I’m tired of this already. It’s 2015. The world should no longer be hindered with such antiquated ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missionary-proselytizing-work-is-not-per-se-a-wrongful-act-of-aggression/740866/43 "2015-12-20T16:58:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Let me be clearer: I have little doubt that the SDMB population will poll out as “yes, act of aggression.” (Unless it’s Wicca). > > But my comment was that our “mainstream culture,” doesn’t in any significant way agree. Oddly enough, I have \*never \*been proselytized to by a Wiccan. Or, come to think of it, by a Muslim. You know who \*does \*proselytize, like, all the time? Christians. Funny, that. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missionary-proselytizing-work-is-not-per-se-a-wrongful-act-of-aggression/740866/44 "2015-12-20T21:18:47Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > OK > > But missionary work itself… I live in a town where people regularly tell me things like, god (Jesus) will protect you, god will never give you more than you can handle (plenty of bad luck stories with bad endings prove this to be false), the devil puts women and liquor and lies about evolution in your way to tempt you… > > I know in 2015 in the USA at large that type of thinking is rare, or, more rare than it was 30 years ago… but in this small town people still do talk, think, act that way… > > These are the same people who think people halfway across the world need to “hear about jesus”. > I’m tired of this already. It’s 2015. The world should no longer be hindered with such antiquated ideas. These “antiquated ideas,” are special cases of the general “problem of evil,” which was discussed by the Greek philosopher Epicurus and by St. Thomas Aquinas, among many others. You are welcome believe that this discussion hinders the world, of course. I don’t agree that it does. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2015, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missionary-proselytizing-work-is-not-per-se-a-wrongful-act-of-aggression/740866/45 "2015-12-20T21:25:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > These “antiquated ideas,” are special cases of the general “problem of evil,” which was discussed by the Greek philosopher Epicurus and by St. Thomas Aquinas, among many others. > > You are welcome believe that this discussion hinders the world, of course. I don’t agree that it does. Actually, I was not making a a distinction about the problem of evil, I was talking about my frustration of living in a small redneck town where people actually believe or pretend to believe things like: 1- Evolution is a lie of the devil 2- Jesus will protect you from being robbed if you work at the 7-11 3- Alcohol is temptation from the devil As to the topic of Missionary work in general, what is your definition of aggressive? Violent? Or overly intrusive? Which definition are you talking about… it’s your thread… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missionary-proselytizing-work-is-not-per-se-a-wrongful-act-of-aggression/740866/46 "2015-12-21T03:56:53Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Actually, I was not making a a distinction about the problem of evil, I was talking about my frustration of living in a small redneck town where people actually believe or pretend to believe things like: > > 1- Evolution is a lie of the devil > 2- Jesus will protect you from being robbed if you work at the 7-11 > 3- Alcohol is temptation from the devil Out of curiosity – what is the explanation when the 7-11 is robbed? > [@](#): > > As to the topic of Missionary work in general, what is your definition of aggressive? Violent? Or overly intrusive? Which definition are you talking about… it’s your thread… When “aggressive” is modified by the adjective “wrongful,” I would opine it’s signaling more than mere annoyance. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missionary-proselytizing-work-is-not-per-se-a-wrongful-act-of-aggression/740866/47 "2015-12-21T04:34:11Z")
Religious proselytizing is no worse than political proselytizing, or the proselytizing of any other idea or ideology (green, vegan, Apple computers, socialism, atheism, research, space exploration, etc.) People heavily invested in particular ideas or ideologies are absolutely required for human culture to evolve and progress. > [@Acsenray](#): > > I don’t know how prevalent this idea is, but to me pairing services for the poor or otherwise afflicted with a proselytizing program is coercive and I look down upon those who do it. Wouldn’t it be nice if the various religions became engaged in a competition to see who could help the poor the most? Christianity starts by giving free meals. Hinduism ups the ante by free meals and housing. Islam overdoes it by free meals, housing and (proper) education. Back to Christianity: better free meals, better housing, better education. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missionary-proselytizing-work-is-not-per-se-a-wrongful-act-of-aggression/740866/48 "2015-12-21T04:47:04Z")
Since most Americans are Christian, and Christianity has a rather strong pro-proselytizing theme, it seems unlikely that a majority of Americans oppose it. A rather large fraction of Americans identify as “evangelical Christians”. That kinda implies proselytizing, if only in a quiet sort of way. Now, as a non-Christian, I sometimes find it annoying. But if I thought that I KNEW something that could literally save your life, I would want to share that, too. And that’s what is at stake – your immortal soul, your life after death. I am willing to bet my immortal soul\* that Christians are wrong about that, but I can’t really blame them for trying to help me. - a cheap bet, since I don’t believe I have an immortal soul. But even if I do, well, that’s a thought for another thread, and an earlier hour of the evening. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missionary-proselytizing-work-is-not-per-se-a-wrongful-act-of-aggression/740866/49 "2015-12-21T08:01:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Out of curiosity – what is the explanation when the 7-11 is robbed? The closest 7/11 (actually called Flash Foods) was robbed at like 2AM a few weeks ago. That was when the 2 night a week person was there. When I saw the 5 night a week guy a few nights later, I told him, “be safe” (as per getting robbed)… he said, oh, I have Jesus to protect me, I won’t get robbed. The same guy thanked Jesus (out loud) for “Blessing Him” when someone left him $4 from a $20 bill from a 12 pack of beer. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missionary-proselytizing-work-is-not-per-se-a-wrongful-act-of-aggression/740866/50 "2015-12-21T08:04:35Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Religious proselytizing is no worse than political proselytizing, or the proselytizing of any other idea or ideology This is demonstrably false. Telling a child all of “those people” will burn in hell forever is a worse statement than saying, for example, you should recycle or vote for candidates that support gay rights. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missionary-proselytizing-work-is-not-per-se-a-wrongful-act-of-aggression/740866/51 "2015-12-21T09:08:23Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > This is demonstrably false. > > Telling a child all of “those people” will burn in hell forever is a worse statement than saying, for example, you should recycle or vote for candidates that support gay rights. Lots of people will consider you a bad person or even evil if you don’t support gay marriage or environmental goals. Telling a child that opposing gay marriage makes you wrong and evil is a worse statement than saying, for example, come to Jesus and find peace and love. Unless you’re one of those wrong-side-of-history religious nut-jobs. Then opposing gay marriage makes you objectively and demonstratively a bad person. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missionary-proselytizing-work-is-not-per-se-a-wrongful-act-of-aggression/740866/52 "2015-12-21T09:13:58Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > On the other hand, when the matter comes up, I think about Charles James Napier, a major general in the British army occupying India, in response to the custom of suttee: > > which you gotta admit is a pretty badass response. Considering that the only source I can find for this quote is a biography written by his brother William Napier, I am not surprised at how badass it sounds. Much easier to have said this stuff in the recounting of your legend by your brother. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missionary-proselytizing-work-is-not-per-se-a-wrongful-act-of-aggression/740866/53 "2015-12-21T09:26:00Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > for example, come to Jesus and find peace and love. well, unfortunately (for your comments), the bible itself is quite clear on the fate of those who do not “come to Jesus” ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missionary-proselytizing-work-is-not-per-se-a-wrongful-act-of-aggression/740866/54 "2015-12-21T09:27:23Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Telling a child that opposing gay marriage makes you wrong and evil telling a child that does make you wrong and evil, well, wrong at least, and quite potentially evil ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missionary-proselytizing-work-is-not-per-se-a-wrongful-act-of-aggression/740866/55 "2015-12-21T09:32:43Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Religious proselytizing is no worse than political proselytizing, or the proselytizing of any other idea or ideology (green, vegan, Apple computers, socialism, atheism, research, space exploration, etc.) People heavily invested in particular ideas or ideologies are absolutely required for human culture to evolve and progress. You can be heavily invested in an idea without being compelled to shove that idea down everyone else’s throat. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missionary-proselytizing-work-is-not-per-se-a-wrongful-act-of-aggression/740866/56 "2015-12-21T11:10:59Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > You can be heavily invested in an idea without being compelled to shove that idea down everyone else’s throat. You can’t shove an idea down anybody’s throat. You can convince them of the merit thereof or you cannot. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missionary-proselytizing-work-is-not-per-se-a-wrongful-act-of-aggression/740866/57 "2015-12-21T12:24:25Z")
Using coercive methods as part of your convincing is a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missionary-proselytizing-work-is-not-per-se-a-wrongful-act-of-aggression/740866/58 "2015-12-21T13:52:43Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Using coercive methods as part of your convincing is a bad thing. Yes. But your “coercive,” is not mine, I suspect. For example, a missionary who knowingly lied to the people he was convincing in order to build rapport is not admirable, but not coercive. In my view. You agree? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missionary-proselytizing-work-is-not-per-se-a-wrongful-act-of-aggression/740866/59 "2015-12-21T14:23:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. But your “coercive,” is not mine, I suspect. For example, a missionary who knowingly lied to the people he was convincing in order to build rapport is not admirable, but not coercive. In my view. You agree? Lying about what? A missionary lying to people about anything is not a great argument for you. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missionary-proselytizing-work-is-not-per-se-a-wrongful-act-of-aggression/740866/60 "2015-12-21T15:04:08Z")
What I’m getting from this thread is some people: Don’t want to hear disagreeable opinions. And especially don’t want to hear disagreeable opinions when asking for free stuff. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missionary-proselytizing-work-is-not-per-se-a-wrongful-act-of-aggression/740866.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missionary-proselytizing-work-is-not-per-se-a-wrongful-act-of-aggression/740866.md?page=4)