# Mississippi hands Westboro it's ass. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 28, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-hands-westboro-its-ass/579986 "2011-04-28T01:43:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-hands-westboro-its-ass/579986/101 "2011-04-28T23:16:57Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I prefer to think that the Gods like me better than Dio. 😃 “I refuse to believe that G-d plays dice.” -Albert Einstein. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-hands-westboro-its-ass/579986/102 "2011-04-28T23:20:11Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > [Miss. sheriff: Online WBC reports are false](http://cjonline.com/news/2011-04-28/miss-sheriff-online-wbc-reports-are-false) > > The above link is from the Topeka Capital-Journal. It states that reports online about the Phelpes being foiled are false. Well, _of course_ he has to say that after his guys were in on it! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-hands-westboro-its-ass/579986/103 "2011-04-28T23:20:13Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > “I refuse to believe that G-d plays dice.” > -Albert Einstein. Please keep your heretical monotheism to yourself, heathen. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-hands-westboro-its-ass/579986/104 "2011-04-28T23:20:47Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > As far as fighting words are concerned, the fact that so many people have shown that it is possible to restrain themselves during the many years that the Phelpses have been up to their antics that fighting words can’t be argued with a straight face. Indeed, people found it remarkable easy to restrain themselves when the WBC focused its protests on the funerals of people like Randy Shilts and Matthew Shepard. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-hands-westboro-its-ass/579986/105 "2011-04-28T23:22:56Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Indeed, people found it remarkable easy to restrain themselves when the WBC focused its protests on the funerals of people like Randy Shilts and Matthew Shepard. Not I. My hatred of them far predates their activities at soldiers’, sailors’, & Marines’ funerals. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-hands-westboro-its-ass/579986/106 "2011-04-28T23:32:10Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Please keep your heretical monotheism to yourself, heathen. It’s Monotheism, as in “Thou shalt make no graven images. This is a major religion, not a shop class”. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-hands-westboro-its-ass/579986/107 "2011-04-28T23:35:46Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > It’s Monotheism, as in “Thou shalt make no graven images. This is a major religion, not a shop class”. Exactly. I worship Athena, who does not deny the existence of other gods; she’s just more awesome than they are. Monotheism is therefore heresy as it denies the reality of the situation as she has defined it, and thus implies that monotheists know something she does not, which is clearly ridiculous. Now silent, ere God turns you into a spider and steps on you! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-hands-westboro-its-ass/579986/108 "2011-04-28T23:42:03Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Indeed, people found it remarkable easy to restrain themselves when the WBC focused its protests on the funerals of people like Randy Shilts and Matthew Shepard. Proves my point exactly. The Phelpses have always spouted the same stupid shit. The only difference is that back then it was popular and now it’s not. This puts the lie to the claim that there is anything inherently harmful about their speech. > [@Malthus](#): > > It isn’t the business of the Constitution to protect such spitting in the name of freedom of speech. Speech is speech. And if we are willing to protect the most offensive speech, we protect ourselves. > [@](#): > > “Fighting words” does not actually require words that literally cause others to uncontrollably break out in violence. Actually, the very notion of “fighting words” is the conceit that some words are likely to incite a breach of the peace. I’ll also note that the _Chaplinsky_ case, which created the fighting words doctrine, was in my view a travesty of justice and if the same facts were to come to light today, my guess is that it would be quickly thrown out as ridiculous. There is some degree of dispute over the true facts, but in my view, the most likely story is that Chaplinsky was a Jehovah’s Witness preaching in public (something about organized religion or the Catholic church being a “racket”) when a crowd started bullying him and threatening violence. A cop came around and instead of restraining the bullies, he joined in. The “fighting words” that Chaplinsky uttered were to accuse the cop of being a “racketeer” and a “fascist.” Bring that nonsense into court today and Chaplinsky would win so fast, your head would spin. That goes to show you that the whole notion fighting words is fundamentally insincere and hypocritical. People from any part of the political spectrum would be wise to abhor this doctrine in its entirety, being that it amounts to nothing more than “stuff I disagree with” and maybe “hurts my feelings.” > [@](#): > > If it did, the doctrine would never apply, since I’m reasonably certain no such words exist. Indeed, this is a very good reason why the “fighting words” doctrine almost never is successfully applied, because it is fundamentally flawed, in that it is based on an outright falsehood, that there are words that can be faulted for causing a breach of the peace. > [@](#): > > The “fantasy” is that, if the Phelps were shut down legally, this would by some inevitable slippery slope damage society. It would do no such thing. Shutting down the Phelpses merely based on the content of their speech is itself an injustice, never mind any slippery slope. ---
**Author:** ![Ostrya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/35a633/32.png) [@Ostrya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ostrya)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-hands-westboro-its-ass/579986/109 "2011-04-28T23:46:25Z")
nvm ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-hands-westboro-its-ass/579986/110 "2011-04-28T23:52:00Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Exactly. I worship Athena, who does not deny the existence of other gods; she’s just more awesome than they are. Monotheism is therefore heresy as it denies the reality of the situation as she has defined it, and thus implies that monotheists know something she does not, which is clearly ridiculous. > > Now silent, ere God turns you into a spider and steps on you! [Household arts and crafts?](http://www.arthistory.sbc.edu/imageswomen/papers/stebbinsathena/athena2.html) Yeah, you’ve got a real winner there. :rolleyes: Jeez Louise, at least go for Brunhilde or someone cool. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-hands-westboro-its-ass/579986/111 "2011-04-29T00:12:00Z")
Get with the [program](http://jewish-humor.blogspot.com/2008/01/10-suggestions.html), Skald. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-hands-westboro-its-ass/579986/112 "2011-04-29T00:14:29Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Exactly. I worship Athena, who does not deny the existence of other gods; she’s just more awesome than they are. Monotheism is therefore heresy as it denies the reality of the situation as she has defined it, and thus implies that monotheists know something she does not, which is clearly ridiculous. > > Now silent, ere God turns you into a spider and steps on you! Incidentally, **Attacklad** identifies as a Hellenist, turning his back on Buddhism, as well as the worship of Tyr. I blame you and Percy Jackson. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-hands-westboro-its-ass/579986/113 "2011-04-29T00:32:15Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Well, _of course_ he has to say that after his guys were in on it! > > :rolleyes: Okay, let me know if I’m being whooshed. Because if this incident really did happen as per the article in the OP,the WBC would be screaming it’s head off and suing someone. Again, please tell me I was being whooshed. Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-hands-westboro-its-ass/579986/114 "2011-04-29T00:43:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It is true that right wingers never cared about the Phelps clan when they were only targeting queers. Yes, this is true. But gays could have physically attacked Phelps and his followers. They could have, as various pro-military right wing people have done, organized groups of motorcycle riders to oppose the Phelps protestors and place themselves between them and the crowds of mourners. Nothing was or is stopping them from responding to the Phelpses with the same force that the pro-military people have used. Generally, when you piss off right wing rural military-loving people, you face much nastier consequences than when you piss off left leaning homosexuals. But all that could change if gay groups decided to try a little muscle for once. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-hands-westboro-its-ass/579986/115 "2011-04-29T01:14:17Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > Again, please tell me I was being whooshed. Seriously. I thought it was Too Good to Be True when I saw it. But just as the Duke of Wellington should have said, “We owe this victory to the English Public Schools”… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-hands-westboro-its-ass/579986/116 "2011-04-29T02:03:07Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Yes, this is true. > > But gays could have physically attacked Phelps and his followers. To what end? > [@](#): > > They could have, as various pro-military right wing people have done, organized groups of motorcycle riders to oppose the Phelps protestors and place themselves between them and the crowds of mourners. They did organize groups to place themselves between the mourners and the Phelps. They didn’t need tough guy biker poseurs to do it, though - just ordinary people who wore outsized angel wings to block the view. It didn’t take any courage or physical tougness. The Phelps were no threat. The macho biker/paramilitary posing is just grandstanding attention whoring and overcompensation. It requires absolutely no courage to do, and is cheap, easy way to get applause. The people who did it for Matthew Shepard had way more guts than these bikers (who refuse to show up for dead homos). ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-hands-westboro-its-ass/579986/117 "2011-04-29T02:58:28Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > Yep Mississippi is full of hero’s battling against the horrors of the Phelps clan, unless of course Phelps is targeting a girl who wanted to go to prom with her partner, then that bitch deserves what she gets. I think you’re forgetting that Mississippi is full of people who’ve never heard of Constance, or Fred Phelps, or this Marine who got buried across the river the other day. And also that politics are just as fractured and divided as they are nationally, so that some people are for this thing and others for that thing and still otheris for nothing. For example, that there were people who stood up for Constance and people who shouted her down. In other words, Mississippi is not a place where all 2+ million people react exactly the same to every incident. Right? ---
**Author:** ![markm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@markm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markm)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-hands-westboro-its-ass/579986/118 "2011-04-29T14:19:11Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] It is true that right wingers never cared about the Phelps clan when they were only targeting queers. [/quote] I do need to say this is not true as stated. It may be true that some or even most never cared, but I know several people who would be considered right-wing (especially were they here on the boards) who said back when Phelps started his nonsense that it was deplorable. However, they also felt as they do now that it was protected, so they didn’t say much beyond a tsk tsk; they still don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-hands-westboro-its-ass/579986/119 "2011-04-29T14:23:27Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Proves my point exactly. The Phelpses have always spouted the same stupid shit. The only difference is that back then it was popular and now it’s not. This puts the lie to the claim that there is anything inherently harmful about their speech. Huh? I doubt the Phelpses were ever “popular”. In any event, I doubt you would find anyone here who makes a distinction between them bashing dead gays, and them bashing dead marines. But assume what they were saying _was_ popular - how on earth would that “put[…] the lie to the claim that there is anything inherently harmful about their speech”? > [@](#): > > Speech is speech. And if we are willing to protect the most offensive speech, we protect ourselves. I know this sort of thing is repeated like a self-evident mantra, but it is not even remotely true. There have always been limits on freedom of speech, and we are not “unprotected” because those limits exist. Defamation and the “fighting words” exceptions aren’t something new or surprising … they have always existed, yet society chugs along unharmed. > [@](#): > > Actually, the very notion of “fighting words” is the conceit that some words are likely to incite a breach of the peace. I’ll also note that the _Chaplinsky_ case, which created the fighting words doctrine, was in my view a travesty of justice and if the same facts were to come to light today, my guess is that it would be quickly thrown out as ridiculous. > > There is some degree of dispute over the true facts, but in my view, the most likely story is that Chaplinsky was a Jehovah’s Witness preaching in public (something about organized religion or the Catholic church being a “racket”) when a crowd started bullying him and threatening violence. A cop came around and instead of restraining the bullies, he joined in. The “fighting words” that Chaplinsky uttered were to accuse the cop of being a “racketeer” and a “fascist.” Bring that nonsense into court today and Chaplinsky would win so fast, your head would spin. That goes to show you that the whole notion fighting words is fundamentally insincere and hypocritical. … yet the concept still exists today, and in more jurisdictions than the US. The specific facts of the 1940s case in which the doctrine arose are quite irrelevant. > [@](#): > > People from any part of the political spectrum would be wise to abhor this doctrine in its entirety, being that it amounts to nothing more than “stuff I disagree with” and maybe “hurts my feelings.” There’s that slippery slope again - the notion that the courts are strangely incapable of distinguishing between the vicious and abhorrent trolling of the likes of the ‘God Hates your dead Fag son!’ Phelps clan, and legitimate political or social protest. You must really hate the notion of defamation. > [@](#): > > Indeed, this is a very good reason why the “fighting words” doctrine almost never is successfully applied, because it is fundamentally flawed, in that it is based on an outright falsehood, that there are words that can be faulted for causing a breach of the peace. No, it is rarely applied because the courts are careful to do the distinguishing I’m talking about - exactly to avoid any such slippery slope! It is obvious that the doctrine isn’t based on words _actually_ having the power to overcome all human restraint - it is about words which are so insulting that they would _tend_ to have that effect. This is funny. You are in effect arguing that this doctrine is a horrible, scary threat to liberty - in spite of it being around since, well, decades - and also arguing that its very rarity is proof it is flawed! How about this for size - it is rarely applied because it is rarely applicable - it is only supposed to be applied in weird and rare cases, like the odd Phelps clan’s; and far from being a threat to liberty, its rareness demonstrates judicial restraint. IMO, too much restraint in this case. They have successfully gamed the legal system. No wonder so many are pissed off. Such gaming of te system brings the laws themselves into disrepute. > [@](#): > > Shutting down the Phelpses merely based on the content of their speech is itself an injustice, never mind any slippery slope. No it isn’t, since their only concern is to troll people’s funerals - which is not a legitimate interest worth protecting. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-hands-westboro-its-ass/579986/120 "2011-04-29T16:08:21Z")
Speech is protected presumptively. There isno need for any kind of interest, legitimate or not. It’s restriction of speech that requires justification. However, the fact that the Zphrlpses speech is political speech means that you need the highest level of governmental interest to restrict it. And your argument amounts to nothing more than “I don’t like what you’re saying,” which doesn’t even meet the lowest standard for restrictions on speech. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-hands-westboro-its-ass/579986.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-hands-westboro-its-ass/579986.md?page=7)