# Mississippi voters reject anti-abortion measure for fetus personhood **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 9, 2011, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-voters-reject-anti-abortion-measure-for-fetus-personhood/602393 "2011-11-09T15:04:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![PandaBear77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@PandaBear77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PandaBear77)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-voters-reject-anti-abortion-measure-for-fetus-personhood/602393/21 "2011-11-10T12:42:18Z")
Thank you, **Ann Onimous** , for your reply 🙂 I didn’t know that MTX is used for ectopic pregnancies – I was under the impression they were always removed via surgery, so ignorance fought 🙂 I couldn’t/wouldn’t have voted for it either if I lived in MS. I want both the mom AND the baby to live - with an ectopic, it’s guaranteed both will die. How anyone can think that is a pro-life stance is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-voters-reject-anti-abortion-measure-for-fetus-personhood/602393/22 "2011-11-10T16:53:53Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > From the article in the OP:Why, exactly, are individual people allowed to have a direct vote on something this important? This is the kind of thing that the legislature (the MS house of representatives/senate) should debate about internally for a very VERY long time, with extensive debate from statisticians and doctors, before making it law. It shouldn’t be possible for Billy Bob and Martha Jo to sally on down from church to the courthouse and vote, _based on emotion,_ to let women who have ectopic pregnancies \*\*DIE \*\*instead of getting an abortion. > > What. The. Fuck is wrong with our legal system that this is allowed to happen?? Many state constitutions have written into them a process where the voters can propose and vote on laws. It’s allowed to happen because either the authors or later amenders of the constitutions put it there on purpose. Note that a law passed that way still has to be otherwise constitutional, and some many state constitutions limit what kind of matters (e.g. nothing to do with religion) can be addressed by this process. ---
**Author:** ![Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swords_to_Plowshares)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-voters-reject-anti-abortion-measure-for-fetus-personhood/602393/23 "2011-11-10T17:01:36Z")
I can’t imagine a law like this existing, in part because it would have so many bizarre consequences. Could a pregnant mother who smoked or drank be convicted of child abuse, for example? Would any law applying to a child also apply to a fetus? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-voters-reject-anti-abortion-measure-for-fetus-personhood/602393/24 "2011-11-10T17:23:59Z")
I would image so–Pregnant woman have been convicted of child abuse for doing illegal drugs. And all miscarriages would have to be investigated in case the mother caused them, thus murdering a person–maybe she smoked, had some coffee or “had bad thoughts” about the baby. ---
**Author:** ![bahia\_hombre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@bahia\_hombre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bahia_hombre)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-voters-reject-anti-abortion-measure-for-fetus-personhood/602393/25 "2011-11-11T03:26:44Z")
At what point does/should society (law) recognize personhood and protect the person? ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-voters-reject-anti-abortion-measure-for-fetus-personhood/602393/26 "2011-11-11T04:52:23Z")
> [@bahia\_hombre](#): > > At what point does/should society (law) recognize personhood and protect the person? Birth. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-voters-reject-anti-abortion-measure-for-fetus-personhood/602393/27 "2011-11-11T14:19:19Z")
Exactly, When it becomes a _separate_ person and no longer a parasite. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-voters-reject-anti-abortion-measure-for-fetus-personhood/602393/28 "2011-11-11T16:41:14Z")
I’m damn glad it failed. I firmly believe that anyone and everyone who would back an idiotic idea like this should be locked up forever. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-voters-reject-anti-abortion-measure-for-fetus-personhood/602393/29 "2011-11-11T23:39:13Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > And all miscarriages would have to be investigated in case the mother caused them, thus murdering a person–maybe she smoked, had some coffee or “had bad thoughts” about the baby. Every time you say this, I (or someone else) point out that when abortion was illegal in the states that forbid it prior to Roe v Wade… not one state had a rule requiring that all miscarriages be investigated. To my knowledge, you have never refuted this fact nor defended your supposition in any rigorous way. Yet you continue to make it. What will it take to get you to acknowledge that this claim is unsupportable? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-voters-reject-anti-abortion-measure-for-fetus-personhood/602393/30 "2011-11-12T14:19:27Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > No, it’s not. Binding referendums triggered by initiative petitions are very rare. The vast majority of functioning democracies do not have them. Even the majority of states in the USA don’t have them. Yes, but this is really irrelevant. The earliest forms of democracy did have people deciding their own laws–it’s just that this becomes very impractical rather quickly. Representative democracy is the next best thing. It’s not a goal in an of itself. **rachelellogram** ’s position is very much antidemocratic. She is saying that people are too stupid (being guided by their emotions) to govern themselves. It doesn’t take much to realize that, if people are too stupid to vote on initiatives, then they are also too stupid to vote for someone who will vote their way on the issues. In fact, it’s worse, since you can bring up issues you know you’ll never actually vote on. In fact, I hold the latter position without holding the former. I think referendums are a vital part of the system, to get around what a party thinks is their mandate. No more busting up unions because someone likes your pro-life stance. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-voters-reject-anti-abortion-measure-for-fetus-personhood/602393/31 "2011-11-12T16:39:04Z")
> [@PandaBear77](#): > > I’m VERY pro-life, but forcing a woman to carry an ectopic pregnancy is ridiculous; it guarantees death for both mother and baby. Yeah, you know a bill is bad when people who are pro-life, like I am, don’t want it passed. Any misstep towards criminalizing spontaneous miscarriages and making ectopic pregnancies untreatable is insane. As for the former, I’ve heard a few (thank God only a few) people argue that a woman who has a miscarriage must have “done something” to cause it, which is bullshit. Most early miscarriages happen because the embryo is genetically abnormal, and we know for a fact that the abnormalities can come from defective sperm too, not just from a defect in ova. So why would she necessarily be the one at fault, when maybe the only reason the baby was abnormal was because her mate came into contact with toxins that damaged **his** gametes? You may as well criminalize failing to get a complete health profile for a potential co-parent at that point, because making an embryo a person isn’t going to prevent many miscarriages without a scary degree of eugenics and forced sterlizations to prevent people whose gamates are likely to cause unsustainable conceptions from happening in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-voters-reject-anti-abortion-measure-for-fetus-personhood/602393/32 "2011-11-12T16:53:06Z")
> [@Ann\_Onimous](#): > > What we were afraid of is what this initiative did not say. The ones that supported I26 said they wanted to get rid of all abortions, including stemming from rape or incest: and stop the sale of any drug that would abort a fertilized egg, including RU-486 and methotrexate, which is used to treat ectopic pregnancies. Most of us also did not want to leave our lives or our daughter’s lives in the hands of politicians. It would not have forced a woman to carry an ectopic pregnancy to term: but without methotrexate, the only way to end an ectopic pregnancy is invasive surgery. And, believe it or not, some people were insisting that a woman could carry an ectopic pregnancy to term or that the baby had to die before surgery should be performed. Of course, we were also certain that this initiative would be struck down as unconstitutional soon enough because of Roe v. Wade. > > Most of you all know I am a Christian, and am fiercely pro-life, to the point that I do not believe in the death penalty: but I could not vote for this at all. And I am ashamed of the behavior of my Christian brothers and sisters during this whole thing. I am thrilled that it did not pass, and am proud as a Mississippian that we stood up to this. > > ETA: Wikipedia has a really good entry about this. You can find it [here](http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Mississippi_Life_Begins_at_the_Moment_of_Fertilization_Amendment,_Initiative_26_%282011%29). So far as I can tell, that Wikipedia article does not support your claim that supporters of the initiative favored letting ectopic pregnancies go untreated or treated only with surgery. Do you have a cite for that claim? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-voters-reject-anti-abortion-measure-for-fetus-personhood/602393/33 "2011-11-12T18:27:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Every time you say this, I (or someone else) point out that when abortion was illegal in the states that forbid it prior to Roe v Wade… not one state had a rule requiring that all miscarriages be investigated. To my knowledge, you have never refuted this fact nor defended your supposition in any rigorous way. > > Yet you continue to make it. > > What will it take to get you to acknowledge that this claim is unsupportable? Dunno if it’s unsupportable. Do know that it’s irrelevant. Defining “personhood” as beginning at the moment of fertilization is not equivalent to banning abortion (the prohibitions entailed by the former are a superset of prohibitions entailed by the latter). ---
**Author:** ![gwendee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/35a633/32.png) [@gwendee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gwendee)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-voters-reject-anti-abortion-measure-for-fetus-personhood/602393/34 "2011-11-12T19:06:21Z")
I’m not proud to admit this, but I didn’t even know this measure was being voted on until about a week prior to the vote. It was discussed on the Diane Rhiem show. The “law watcher” type guy who was interviewed said he thought the proposition would likely pass because the the people working for it had mobilized earlier and had quite a bit more money than those who were against it. Allow me to echo, “Way to go, Mississippi!” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-voters-reject-anti-abortion-measure-for-fetus-personhood/602393/35 "2011-11-12T19:42:29Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Dunno if it’s unsupportable. Do know that it’s irrelevant. > > Defining “personhood” as beginning at the moment of fertilization is not equivalent to banning abortion (the prohibitions entailed by the former are a superset of prohibitions entailed by the latter). 1. Even accepting your analysis as correct, **Annie** has made similar claims arguing against banning abortion only. 2. I do not agree that this amendment, even if it had passed, would have required investigation of every miscarriage. 3. You, personally, have shown a remarkable willingness to predict the effect of proposed laws, and a remarkable unwillingness to then acknowledge that your prediction was completely wrong after the law in question was enacted and failed to produce the result you argued it would. Is there some reason to credit your predictions here? Wouldn’t you do the same thing again after results proved you wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-voters-reject-anti-abortion-measure-for-fetus-personhood/602393/36 "2011-11-12T21:23:14Z")
Bricker surly you must know in many Latin American countries were The Catholic Church is very influential similar laws have been passed causing doctors, in fear of the law not treat women with ectopic pregnancies. The preferred treatment for EPs is methotrexate which is less harmful than evasive surgery and can preserve a women’s fertility. The use of methotrexate is forbidden by your church and women are suffering the consequences when treatment is withheld. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Onimous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea5d25/32.png) [@Ann\_Onimous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Onimous)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-voters-reject-anti-abortion-measure-for-fetus-personhood/602393/37 "2011-11-12T22:04:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So far as I can tell, that Wikipedia article does not support your claim that supporters of the initiative favored letting ectopic pregnancies go untreated or treated only with surgery. Do you have a cite for that claim? I’ll look: the Yes on 26ers took all their sites down immediately after they lost. But I will look for you. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-voters-reject-anti-abortion-measure-for-fetus-personhood/602393/38 "2011-11-13T00:38:56Z")
> [@Icerigger](#): > > Bricker surly you must know in many Latin American countries were The Catholic Church is very influential similar laws have been passed causing doctors, in fear of the law not treat women with ectopic pregnancies. The preferred treatment for EPs is methotrexate which is less harmful than evasive surgery and can preserve a women’s fertility. The use of methotrexate is forbidden by your church and women are suffering the consequences when treatment is withheld. This seems like a series of correlations in which you invite the reader to infer causation. (1) In many Latin American countries where the Catholic Church is influential… _Unstated inference: therefore, the Church is an advocate for and responsible for…_ (2) …similar laws have been passed causing doctors, in fear of the law not treat women with ectopic pregnancies… \*Unstated inference: these laws also define personhood as commencing from conception. Unstated inference: the laws forbid the treatment of ecoptic pregnancy.\* (3) …The preferred treatment for EPs is methotrexate which is less harmful than evasive surgery and can preserve a women’s fertility. The use of methotrexate is forbidden by your church and women are suffering the consequences when treatment is withheld. _Unstated inference: The use of methotrexate or other non-surgical treatment is forbidden by the law._ Which of those inferences, if any, are true? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-voters-reject-anti-abortion-measure-for-fetus-personhood/602393/39 "2011-11-13T01:54:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > (1) In many Latin American countries where the Catholic Church is influential… > _Unstated inference: therefore, the Church is an advocate for and responsible for…_ What is the RCC’s position on abortion? > [@](#): > > …similar laws have been passed causing doctors, in fear of the law not treat women with ectopic pregnancies… **Bricker** , this statement is true or it is false. Unstated assumptions are not relevant to its truth value, and only its truth is relevant when assessing what physicians in this country are likely to do in the face of a similar law. ---
**Author:** ![bahia\_hombre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@bahia\_hombre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bahia_hombre)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-voters-reject-anti-abortion-measure-for-fetus-personhood/602393/40 "2011-11-13T02:41:45Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Exactly, When it becomes a _separate_ person and no longer a parasite. Parasite? Really? That seems so hateful. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-voters-reject-anti-abortion-measure-for-fetus-personhood/602393.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mississippi-voters-reject-anti-abortion-measure-for-fetus-personhood/602393.md?page=3)