http://www.gregpalast.com/floridas-disappeared-voters-disfranchised-by-the-gop/ Heres the Palast report that shows what really is happening. This is voter fraud.
That is not an article, it is an editorial. It is also lacking any facts about fraud or disenfranchisement.
Once again - 600+ illegal votes in California in one District’s election, and 4,700 questionable registrations. That is a fact.
Now - show me the data on voters who do not have any form of government ID.
As I acknowledged in post 57 (so please stop saying I’m ignoring that case–I specifically addressed it already, and you chose not to respond to my post there). You’ve pointed out one case in which bad voting occurred, under what are probably the ideal circumstances for such illegal voting to occur (a district with many undocumented aliens, with a Latino candidate, and an active illegal-alien-rights community), in which the amount of illegal voting STILL wasn’t enough to sway the election, and which the Republican party itself decided the case wasn’t bad enough to prompt further investigation. That’s weak tea.
Nonsense. I and others have pointed out that our nation’s president was probably chosen in part due to the number of people unfairly PREVENTED from voting in 2000, due to overzealous efforts to prevent felons from casting illegal votes. That’s a case in which an election was decided by a proposal similar to this one, and it was probably the most important election on earth in the past 10 years. YOU’RE the one ignoring the evidence we’ve offered.
Again: any effort to prevent illegal votes from being cast will necessarily prevent some legal votes from being cast. The experience of casting a vote is a greater good than the fact of an illegal vote being cast is an evil. It’s more important to allow everyone eligible to vote than it is to prevent a few people from casting illegal votes, UNLESS there’s evidence that those illegal votes are overturning elections.
You’ve offered exactly zero evidence that any time in the last 50 years illegal votes have decided an election. I see no illness for this remedy to cure.
Daniel
Voter fraud is when someone votes who has no right to.
This was a ham-fisted attempt to keep people from voting who have no right to, that also nailed a bunch of people who did have a right to vote. Every state has different rules on whether or not felons (and what types of felons) can vote. This has been investigated (and discussed here) multiple times.
None of this has anything to do with voter ID.
Well, it does, kinda. If we ever adopt a national ID card, presumably it would be linked to a database that would make it possible for the elections office to check your criminal history, if any, with one click.
So we have to wait until an election’s outcome is changed to stop it? No thanks. I LIVE in an area filled with non citizens. I do NOT want them cancelling out my vote. You seem fine with taking away my civil rights, I am not. I welcome voter ID for that reason (not that it will pass in California any time soon).
I never stated that the illegals changed the election - I said that there was proof of voter fraud (and you agreed with me - but others still ignore that fact). Everyone around here keeps on claiming that there is no proof of fraud. You moved the goalposts to make it that there is no proof of vote fraud that might have changed the result of an election.
In this article it mentions that US Atty from New Mexico , David Iglesias , was pressured to start a task force to investigate voter fraud. After 2 months he found zero cases he could prosecute successfully. When he refused to continue he got fired.
In this article it also says that the Missouri law will provide for free ID:
And yet you’re willing to have a cure that demonstrably HAS changed elections in order to fix this disease that hasn’t changed elections.
Your civil rights have not been removed. That’s silly: they’ve no more been removed than they would have been had someone voted an exact mirror ticket of yours. You were able to vote; your vote influenced the election.
I didn’t move the goalposts: I set them in post 43, before you joined the thread. Voter fraud that doesn’t change an election is significant inasmuch as it should be prosecuted, sure, but it is insignificant inasmuch as it doesn’t actually present a danger sufficient to warrant measures that clearly DO present their own dangers.
This is a cure in search of a problem: it’s chemotherapy for a cancer-free patient. We don’t need it. Lesser measures (vigorous prosecution of those very few cases of illegal vote-casting) is a much better solution than erecting a hurdle to voting would be.
Daniel
You assert this balance as a fact. Why? I say it’s better for people to have confidence that their legal votes are not being negated by illegal votes. You say that the good feeling that innures toa voter from merely voting is a greater good, and I ask you to prove that, or qualify it as simply your personal view.
I got a free ID this week. It took a lot of time and I had to get there. I had to have proof (essentially other ID ) to get my free ID. When I got the passport a few years ago it was pretty involved and expensive. That Id was not free. So I need an Id that costs money to get a free ID. Thanks for the deal.
http://www.vote.caltech.edu/reports/purging-vrdb.pdf Heres a nice MIT study indicating 57,000 voters may have been excluded in Florida in 2000. The article shows the intent was not to clean the system. That was just the excuse. It was to broom voters in the Democratic demographic.
Where exactly does the article show that?
It does say that removal of voters from registration lists is an operation that has been historically disenfranchised minorities and hurt confidence in the election system.
That is in the conclusion . It says purging has disenfranchised minorities. The minorities are mostly Democratic voters. Ergo the end is Democratic voters are removed helping the Republicans.
Apparently, it’s not a fact:
–An Analysis of Voter fraud in the Us report by Lorraine C. Minnite of Demos at http://www.demos.org/pubs/analysis_voter_fraud.pdf
It cites The Washington Post, March 1, 1998, p. A19 on this point.
This looks like just another fear of swarthy people kind of law. I emailed my state representative to let her know of my opposition to this. I’m tired of digging up old papers and new forms to keep driving or voting or whatever else the frightened legislators are afraid the Bad People might be doing. She responded by letting me know she already opposes it and thanking me for my support. We had something similar last time I had to renew my driver’s license. One of my options for identifying myself was to bring in a US passport (even if expired). The ladies down at the license bureau thought it was hysterically funny when I handed over my 40-year-old passport, featuring my photo as a 12-year-old boy, as legally acceptable identification for getting my new Missouri operator’s license. I think any kind of ID can get faked, but that guy on the old passport was me, trust me. Really.
Your “ergo” is the problem here.
Felony laws have historically resulted in higher imprisonment of minorities. Ergo, the end intention of felony laws is the imprisonment of minorities?
See the difference here? You said
Now, where in the article does it say that, gonzomax?
yes, it is:
FACT: Illegal, non-citizens cast votes.
Again - they decided that there were not enough to have tipped the election (especially since you don’t know WHO they voted for). However - Illegal, non-citizens voted in that election.
We do NOT know how many other elections have been swayed by illegal, non-citizens voting. It takes work and money to investigate.
Voter ID would help fix that.
There is a difference between my vote being cancelled by a legitimate vote, and my vote being cancelled by an illegal vote. In the former, it is politics. In the latter, it is disenfranchisement and an assault upon my civil rights when people refuse to stop it (and worse - encourage it).
Again - where are these legions of registered voters who possess no form of identification? I would love to meet them - they must be amazing people. They have lived their entire life without a bank account, a social security card, a drivers license or a passport. Perhaps they are Amish? I certainly would encourage the same good-hearted people who go out and do voter registration drives to help those folks get an ID card to ensure that they can vote.
As for the goalposts - I have been responding to all of the people who keep on claiming that there are no illegal aliens voting. I agree - you have been clear since the beginning that even if there are illegals voting, absent evidence of those votes making a difference you consider the ID to cause more problems than it solves. I respect and understand your position, I simply disagree with it.
My first reaction when reading the thread was to this statement:
Voyager, in post 6:
You did appear to think that there is minimal illegal alien voting with this statement, however in post 53:
**Ravenman ** made this claim:
**Gonzomax ** said this:
Each of these posts implies that illegal / non-citizens voting does not exist - when I pointed out that it DID exist, and with enough of an issue to warrent an investigation, your were the only one to really see that. You also stated that it was not enough to make a difference, so who cares. I respond (again) that I care, as do many voters in my County. Unfortunately, the Democrats apparently LOVE illegal votes cast, and they LOVE the votes from felons - so anything that might hurt those two critical Demcratic constituencies must be protected.
You made this claim too:
Now - where has voter ID requirements changed an election? Or are you mixing this issue up with the felon database again?
Mind you, all of this is a slight hijack of the beginning of the thread regarding proving citizenship status. That is still an open issue, since proving that you are a citizen is harder than just proving that you are you under our current system. The other interesting bit is that the same people that used to fight against a national ID are now starting to embrace the concept. Their fear of the State is apparently weaker than their fear of illegals.
What are illegal immigrants allowed to get, besides emergency medicine?