Missouri officially bans gay marriage

The BBQ Pit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanvasShoes
It is not fun to have to weigh one’s faith against one’s friends, it’s a heartbreaking, gut wrenching every day decision. So give those having the rough decision between their God, and their gay friends and loved ones a little leeway.

This particular portion of my post was not related to the others, that is to say, it wasn’t in support of those opposing gay marriage, it was more of a sidebar regarding those “on the fence” so to speak. Sorry I didn’t do a very good job of separating it.

What I meant was, that not all of those who are having difficulty with this decision are rabid homophobics, some are people who are in an honest conflict within themselves, those whose teachings include that God says homosexuality is a sin.

For me? I’m already “sinning” after all, I’m not following the dictates of the bible which say to shun sinners. As I have several good friends (and one cousin) who are gay. So I’m basically screwed and going to hell anyway :smiley:

Do I allow my faith to dictate my relationships with my friends? No. Does it bother me? Yes, as much as my other “sins”. I don’t know God’s mind, I don’t pretend to. But it still bothers me, I still feel as if I have to choose, and when I don’t choose “right” that I’m not being a good christian. But to my mind, none of that has any bearing on the legal process of marriage.

Actually, I don’t think that it should at all. That’s why, in my posts, I stated that I thought that making sure people, especially certain religions, understood that it was STATE, not religion, legalizing marriage, that it would pass more quickly, and more palatably for those who ARE facing the sorts of conflicts I mentioned. I think we’re saying the same thing, just approaching it in different ways. To me, they’re completely separate, and as long as state and church are kept separate, there’s no conflict, unless a person (like me) chooses to place themselves in a conflicted position.

Again, not everyone disagreeing with gay marriage is frothing at the mouth, redneck, gay basher. Some are just wrestling wtih that which I describe above. And are likley in various stages of resolving that conflict within themselves.

No. I didn’t mean 'give them leeway to stop gay marriage". I meant allow them leeway for the difficulty of their inner conflict, and understand that there are ways to get your cause across other than insults and forcing your (collective not YOU), views down their throats.

Ensuring that it is well known that this is a LEGAL, not holy issue, would go much further toward getting both groups what they want. Gay couples a full right to marriage, and those opposing on religious grounds knowledge that it has nothing to do with God’s laws.

All through Hollywood. All through groups like the one that raised 400,000 bucks in St. Louis. All over these boards, and in unexpected places like those that are still trying to reconciile their conflicts and their beliefs.

As someone else said earlier in the thread. Social upheavals like this are never overnight, and never without growing pains and much social unrest. And no matter when this issue is finally made legal, those who ARE the rabid gaybashers will remain the same, probably for awhile, worse then before.

Changing status won’t change those idiots’ opinions or behaviour.

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CanvasShoes: That is some amazing bullshit acrobatic justification for stepping on people. With creativity like that you should run for office.

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More often, I find people arguing that marriage is fundamentally a religious institution (historically untrue) and that the state therefore has no legitimate ability to recognise marriages that aren’t in accord with their specific religion. Commonly, the state recognition of nondiscriminatory marriages is seen as imposing something upon that specific religion, even for folks who are clear that their priests will not be obligated to perform any marriages that aren’t in accord with their theologies.

I once saw a state senator making basically that argument. One of the most depressing damn things I’ve ever seen.

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What are you talking about? Please point out where I’m stepping on people, or supporting other stepping on people.

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Well, that’s exactly opposite what I’m saying, what I’m saying is that the separation of church and state, especially in this instance, should not only be enforced, but expressed. And I’m wondering why people aren’t realizing that what gets decided by the federal government regarding gay marriage has NO bearing on religious beliefs regarding marriage.

As SolGrundy already pointed out, there has been a separation of church and state for a long time. And marriage has been a part of the legal system since forever. People are trying to mix the two. The opposition to gay marriage is being made due to religious beliefs (and as I said before, that’s the ONLY opposition that is understandable). So, take the RELIGIOUS out of it, remind people that it’s a factor of legality, and nothing to do with God’s law, since people are trying to equate the two and that’s the basis on which they’re opposing it.

I only know about the church I belonged to, but in order for a couple to be married under their church doctrine, they had to be married IN the church. A legal ceremony was not good enough. Otherwise, they weren’t married in the eyes of God according to their religion.

So, since gay couples are to be married by federal law, it has no bearing on religious beliefs as far as homosexuality. But it seems as if those who oppose on religious grounds don’t realize this.

If we have a true separation of church and state, it doesn’t anyway. But it seems as if those opposing on religious grounds don’t seem to realize this. At least not from what I’ve seen in the news and so on.

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It is expressed.

People still take the existence of marriages that aren’t according to their particular religious fetishes as an “imposition on their religious rights”. People who know about the law do this – like the senator I mentioned.

I don’t know how to convince these people otherwise, but just pointing out that the state contract has nothing to do with religious marriages doesn’t cut the mustard. The axiom is that marriage is a religious thing, that it belongs to religions, and specifically that it belongs to their religion and therefore must be set up according to their particular belief-set.

This is the thing that needs to be shaken, and I haven’t the slightest fucking clue how to do so. Just making sure people are aware of the law and how it works won’t do it; I’ve seen it not work more times than I can count.

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I don’t believe that a majority of the people in Missouri who voted on the law from the OP are “rabid” homophobics. They don’t have to be; they only have to be just homophobic enough to vote for a law that treats about 10% of their population like second-class citizens who don’t deserve the basic rights that the other 90% have.

I just can’t have any sympathy for the people who claim to be “on the fence.” When people are actively working to deny a portion of the population their rights, anyone who doesn’t try to stop them, is helping them.

Believe me, I understand all too well the conflict between homosexuality and Christianity. When you spend over a decade hating yourself and not understanding why you should have to hate yourself, and you become so convinced that your life is doomed to be empty and hollow and meaningless and you’re just “wrong” that you would commit suicide if it weren’t for the fact that that is a sin, too, it helps give a little insight into what’s going on in the “heartland.”

The only bit that depresses me more is that I’ve heard gay men raised in Muslim households have it even worse.

And again, what of the gay people in Missouri (and Alaska, and Utah, and elsewhere) who’ve had an unjust law rammed down their throats? At what point are we allowed to stand up for ourselves, and say that this has gone too far? What are we supposed to do when their “inner conflict” becomes outer, and results in an entire state saying that two people in love are “wrong” for being in love? And gives more justification to the self-hatred of tends of thousands of people who are struggling with their orientation and having to go through the same needless hell that I had to go through?

Why is it that religious groups campaign against a policy that doesn’t affect them in any way, and they’re described as defending their values and their way of life; but when proponents of same-sex marriage try to defend themselves, they’re seen as getting all uppity and trying to ram their beliefs down everyone’s throat?

Point taken, but I have to say that personally, I very strongly disagree with this. True Christianity is not incompatible with same-sex marriage. True Christianity teaches love, and forgiveness, and commitment, and devotion, and the sanctity and importance of marriage, and honoring and loving and respecting other people. Same-sex marriage has everything to do with God’s laws. Condemning others and denying them happiness does not.

Again, point taken, but this is IMO something of a dangerous viewpoint. The change isn’t happening overnight. If you look at it as a “gay rights movement,” then it’s been going on for more than thirty years. If you look at it as a civil rights movement, which it really is, it’s been going on for more than a century.

But change can happen instantly. It sure did in Missouri, where instantly, thousands of people were informed that their love was invalid and they were not allowed to marry.

No, legalizing same-sex marriage won’t instantly change the opinions or behavior of some people. What it will do, though, is make them the aberrations, and take away their power. These people are afraid that voting for same sex marriage will mean that society says that being homosexual is “okay,” and they’ll be “forced” to “accept” it.

Whether or not you have sympathy for that, the fact is this: Not voting against the efforts of these idiots, saying that it’s a major social upheaval, and our society needs time to accomodate it, and it’s acceptable to make people wait for their rights. It means that society says that being bigoted is “okay,” and gays will be forced to accept that bigotry. I hate to resort to cliches, but: if you’re not part of the solution…

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Well then that’s just stupid.

(And if mockingbird would have paid ANY attention and not gone off ranting about percieved slights, he would have seen that I started out by saying I hadn’t been following the matter closely enough to be well enough informed on what was happening on it, hope he ices that knee).

So what can ex church members do to convince people of this? I mean, as I said, I watch the news, and other event coverage of this stuff, but never see anything regarding the issues. Just the facts ma’am, as they say. Such as X number of gay couples married in San Francisco. Protests exist in ABC town. And so on.

And what I said before, regarding the conflict between people’s religion and their desire to support their friends. Agree with it or not, this is a real emotion people have. I suppose some will see them as all black rather than allow them their hu,man foibles, but that hardly furthers the cause among those that can potentially vote against it in other states.

What I expressed about my own fears and pain was in answer to the question of 'why do people oppose this". Since I have BEEN in one of those churches, and was raised in one of those religions, and have dealt with this as well as other conflicts because of that, I (wrongly I see) guessed that people would want to know how people on that 'side" felt. So that they could know what they faced insofar as getting this changed. If all gay people feel as mockingbird does and equqte any and all discomfort or conflict with homosexuality with evil gun toting rednecks and then approach it that way. Well that’s just a way to keep the fight going. I thought perhaps part of fighting ignorance was also the sharing of experiences not only of the intellectual kind, but of the human condition kind.

Oh well.

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Yes, you summed up your posts pretty well.

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Natch, Shoshana, thanks. Makes sense to me, and I’m sorry if I sounded like a fatuous low-life. (Congratulations, BTW.)

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Mockingbird, please explain in what way I’m a low-life, and what led you to that conclusion.

Thanks.

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And part of fighting ignorance is not grouping people based on one trait and assuming that they all think and act the same and have the same agenda. Not all gay people feel as Mockingbird does, just as not all gay people feel as I do. Or your cousin. Or your friends.

As I said earlier, I too have BEEN in one of those churches, and was raised in one of those religions. I KNOW what some people are thinking, and I’m doing everything I can to help them to stop thinking that way. This isn’t just a “gay vs. straight” issue. It’s not just going on in Hollywood and San Francisco and Greenwich Village; there are gay people all over the place. And it’s not just the case of gays acting out of self-interest; there are more straight people than gay people in the world, and they need to be in support of this and show everyone that there is nothing to be afraid of before things are going to be fair.

But the point still stands, and I’ve said it before (ad nauseam): I would definitely like to hear a valid argument against same-sex marriage, so that I can help refute it. All I’ve heard so far:

  1. Irrelevant “slippery slope” arguments. The claim that something unrelated could happen.
  2. Religious arguments. These don’t apply to law.
  3. It’s not “normal,” or a “majority of people” are against it. Why are they against it? And does might make right?
  4. Inarticulated feelings that “it’s just not right, but I can’t explain why it’s not.” Is it the policy of this country to introduce legislation based on vague uneasiness?
  5. Marriage is for procreation. If that’s the case, I want to see the legislation that bans and invalidates the union of infertile heterosexual couples.
  6. It’s not the same as anti-miscegenation laws. For one, I don’t see how: if I’d like to marry a black woman, I wouldn’t have to make myself black. And I’d like to marry a man, but I can’t make myself a woman. For two, even if it isn’t the same, why is one right and the other’s not?
  7. Things are fine the way they are. Why do gays gotta be all pushy? Because sometimes you have to stand up for what’s fair.

We’re in a situation where opponents to equality in marriage for same-sex couples are introducing legislation to ban it, without giving reason. Instead of having to prove why they need to ban same-sex marriage, they’re putting the burden of proof onto supporters to show why they shouldn’t ban it. That’s kind of fucked up.

And when you try to push the issue, people just stop talking. They don’t bother to explain themselves, for fear of getting called out for being a “bigot” or a “homophobe.” So what? I’ve been called “pervert,” “faggot,” “cocksucker,” “fudgepacker,” “sissy,” and countless other names that I can’t even remember now. I survived. Worst that can happen is you re-think your views.