# Missouri suggests women guilty of ectopic pregnancy must die **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 22, 2022, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457 "2022-03-22T01:36:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/21 "2022-03-22T16:06:35Z")
Also, I appreciate your providing a link to that article, written by: > _Today’s guest author is Sarah St. Onge, who writes about child-loss, grief, and issues pertaining to continuing a pregnancy after a lethal anomaly has been diagnosed. You can read more of her work at_ [_shebringsjoy.com_](http://shebringsjoy.com/) _. She’s also a_ [_savethe1.com_](http://savethe1.com/) _board member and founder of_ [_limbbodywallcomplex.net_](http://limbbodywallcomplex.net/) _, a pro-life, diagnosis-specific website which supports parents who continue their pregnancy after receiving the same lethal diagnosis which took her daughter, Beatrix Elizabeth. You can find Sarah on_ [_Facebook_](https://www.facebook.com/Shebringsjoy/) _,_ [_Twitter_](https://twitter.com/She_Brings_Joy) _, and_ [_Instagram_](https://www.instagram.com/shebringsjoy/) _._ [Who doesn’t seem to have any qualifications whatsoever to describe the legal implications of the Bill as it was written] I also note that Ms. St. Onge includes links that tell us that the Bill will be amended to “clarify” this issue: > Now, IANAL, but … the language in the Bill seemed pretty unambiguous to me. Maybe you can help me better understand why it doesn’t say … what it says. TIA. ---
**Author:** ![agzem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@agzem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agzem)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/22 "2022-03-22T16:09:05Z")
That applies to mail-order abortions only: “…applies to those who are distributing these items **by mail or delivery** service.” See the link I posted above. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/23 "2022-03-22T16:11:27Z")
That may be what you say, but it is inarguably **not** what the Bill says: > [@DavidNRockies](#): > > 1. A person or entity commits the offense of trafficking abortion inducing devices or drugs if such person or entity knowingly **imports, exports, distributes, delivers, manufactures, produces, prescribes, administers, or dispenses or attempts to import, export, distribute, deliver, manufacture, produce, prescribe, administer, or dispense** any instrument, device, medicine, drug [bolding mine] ---
**Author:** ![agzem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@agzem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agzem)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/24 "2022-03-22T16:16:18Z")
Abortion pills don’t even work for ectopic pregnancy. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/25 "2022-03-22T16:17:29Z")
So the bill does _not_ say what it **says:** > The abortion was performed or induced or was attempted to be performed or induced on a woman who has an ectopic pregnancy; ?? Color me confused. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/26 "2022-03-22T16:21:10Z")
> [@agzem](#): > > Abortion pills don’t even work for ectopic pregnancy. This, too, seems to be contraindicated by the literature (just one source among _many_): > **[Ectopic pregnancy - Treatment](https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/ectopic-pregnancy/treatment/)** > > Unfortunately, the baby cannot be saved in an ectopic pregnancy. Treatment is usually needed to remove the pregnancy before it grows too large. > [@](#): > > ## Medication > > If an ectopic pregnancy is diagnosed early but active monitoring isn’t suitable, treatment with a medicine called methotrexate may be recommended. > > This works by stopping the pregnancy from growing. It’s given as a single injection into your buttocks. > > You won’t need to stay in hospital after treatment, but regular blood tests will be carried out to check if the treatment is working. > > A second dose is sometimes needed and surgery may be necessary if it doesn’t work. Another credible site: > **[Ectopic pregnancy: Rare but potentially life-threatening-Ectopic pregnancy -...](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/ectopic-pregnancy/diagnosis-treatment/drc-20372093)** > > Ectopic pregnancy occurs outside the uterus, threatening the mother's life. It can't continue normally. But swift treatment can prevent deadly blood loss. > [@](#): > > ### Medication > > An early ectopic pregnancy without unstable bleeding is most often treated with a medication called methotrexate, which stops cell growth and dissolves existing cells. The medication is given by injection. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/27 "2022-03-22T16:28:01Z")
Methotrexate isn’t really an abortion drug, and would not normally be referred to as an “abortion pill”, especially since it’s an injection. The bill is confusing, because it includes devices and drugs. I don’t know of any mail-order devices for inducing an abortion, so maybe that’s what the clarification will be. @agzem, how would you interpret a doctor obtaining methotrexate from out of state in order to abort an ectopic pregnancy? What about a woman going out of state to get the medication (maybe that’s where the closest pharmacy is?) and bringing it back to abort her ectopic pregnancy? What if she gets the methotrexate from a mail order pharmacy? ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/28 "2022-03-22T16:32:37Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Methotrexate isn’t really an abortion drug, and would not normally be referred to as an “abortion pill”, especially since it’s an injection. > > The bill is confusing, because it includes devices and drugs. ISTM that the language I cited above would pretty directly class Methotrexate as an “abortion drug” if it was used to terminate an ectopic pregnancy. It really doesn’t leave any substantive wiggle room. I mean … in the case of an ectopic, Methotrexate isn’t being prescribed to treat Lupus, right ? The language of the bill as written is pretty much as evil as its detractors say it is. The Bill’s sponsors are back-pedaling with a vengeance, now. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/29 "2022-03-22T16:39:17Z")
I agree with you on that front, but you were responding to **agzem** ’s statement that abortion pills don’t work on ectopic pregnancy. I think that’s correct at least. It’s certainly possible that the reactionary misogynists who are proposing this wording for this bill don’t know enough about the subject. That is, they only think of RU486 as an abortifacient, not realizing that methotrexate can be used that way, too. They are idiots and politicians, not doctors. There was that idiotic politician in Ohio(?) who wanted to require that ectopic pregnancies get re-implanted in the uterus. I assume their focus on ectopic pregnancies is to make it harder to say “I got an abortion because it was an ectopic pregnancy” even when it wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/30 "2022-03-22T16:42:38Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I agree with you on that front, but you were responding to **agzem** ’s statement that abortion pills don’t work on ectopic pregnancy. I think that’s correct at least. I understand what you’re saying but a pill used to terminate an ectopic pregnancy is pretty much _ipso facto_ an abortion pill. Whether or not the anti-choice crowd knew, knows, or understands that is functionally irrelevant, IMHO, because a Court of law would have to decide the intent of the law, and the law **seemed** pretty clear as written. If you’re saying, OTOH, that the anti-choice crowd is basically being fleeced – asked to believe one thing while the law clearly says another, then … while that’s possible … it’s even sadder. ---
**Author:** ![agzem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@agzem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agzem)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/31 "2022-03-22T16:44:33Z")
The bill could have been written better because an ectopic pregnancy is not legally considered an “abortion” but currently this is still just a proposed bill. The author of the bill says he will introduce an amendment to clarify the issue with ectopic pregnancies. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/32 "2022-03-22T16:50:34Z")
Wait, what? Terminating an ectopic pregnancy is definitely considered an abortion. If the law uses some specific defined term for an abortion, maybe you should show that, and then also explain why terminating an ectopic pregnancy changes a class B felony to a class A. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/33 "2022-03-22T16:50:52Z")
> [@agzem](#): > > The bill could have been written better because an ectopic pregnancy is not legally considered an “abortion” but currently this is still just a proposed bill. The author of the bill says he will introduce an amendment to clarify the issue with ectopic pregnancies They got caught. Overwhelmingly, these people are more evil than stupid. My supposition would be that they knew they might get caught and were ready to throw away a provision or two of the Bill in order to look: - To the hardliners like they took a principled stand, and - To some of the moderates like they were willing to compromise But they got caught. There really isn’t much functional slop or ambiguity in this bill. It’s misogynistic and at least situationally anti-life on its face. ---
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/34 "2022-03-22T16:55:11Z")
This whole FUBAR shows how a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. My whole premise is that the management of a pregnancy is something between a woman and her doctor. I personally would be tearing up the place if there was a contingent of politicians in the exam room with me and my doctor. An ectopic pregnancy is fatal to the embryo. Too often, it is diagnosed because the fallopian tube has ruptured and the woman’s life is threatened by internal bleeding. Surely there are medical libraries with preserved ruptured fallopian tubes and expired embryos that can be hauled out and passed among members of the Missouri legislature so they can be educated as to what they are talking about. Doctor-patient confidentiality should protect the woman who experiences an ectopic as she discusses the best way to handle it. Where in the Hell is the Legislature getting its information (half-baked of course) about this treatment? Who is blabbing? What’s next? Maybe the Missouri Legislature would like to “butt in” on colonoscopies and determine if it is morally acceptable to remove pre-cancerous polyps? Mind your own damned business, Missouri! ~VOW ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/35 "2022-03-22T17:06:28Z")
Party of Life … until they’re born. [sometimes, it’s truly hard to beat bumper-sticker-style pithy slogans] ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/36 "2022-03-22T17:11:08Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > So the bill does _not_ say what it **says:** > > > The abortion was performed or induced or was attempted to be performed or induced on a woman who has an ectopic pregnancy; > > ?? > > Color me confused. Read it in context. It outlaws the use of abortion pills _specifically_ to treat ectopic pregnancies. ---
**Author:** ![agzem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@agzem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/agzem)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/37 "2022-03-22T17:11:56Z")
Don’t worry…the abortion industry lobbyists will come up with some new excuse because they oppose anything that threatens their profit margins. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/38 "2022-03-22T17:14:21Z")
I understand that you’ve struggled to support many of your assertions and the main tenets of the Bill, but this is your next move ? Okay: > **[Planned Parenthood's Services - FactCheck.org](https://www.factcheck.org/2015/09/planned-parenthoods-services/)** > > Congressional Republicans have made versions of the claim that abortions make up 94 percent of Planned Parenthood's "pregnancy services." That misleading figure only counts certain direct services to pregnant clients. [or any number of other reputable sources] ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/39 "2022-03-22T17:18:05Z")
Hey, better be careful! You don’t want to mess with Big Abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2022, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/40 "2022-03-22T17:19:57Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > also explain why terminating an ectopic pregnancy changes a class B felony to a class A. This is the part that I don’t understand. The law, on its face, makes it illegal to “traffic” drugs and devices that are used to perform abortions that are “in violation of any state of federal law.” So, in less I’m missing something, the legality (or not) of the abortion itself is defined/determined somewhere else in state and federal law. That is, the statute would make it illegal to supply to drugs used to perform an otherwise _illegal_ abortion. Presumably the purpose of that is really to impose liability on drug/device manufacturers and distributors (and deter them). (I assume the practitioner faces more significant liability for performing the illegal abortion). But the statute then sets forth 6 aggravating factors that make it a class A felony, and all of the others sort of make sense (large volumes, repeat offenders, etc.). But why would performing an illegal abortion for an ectopic pregnancy be singled out? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457.md?page=3)