# Missouri suggests women guilty of ectopic pregnancy must die **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 22, 2022, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457 "2022-03-22T01:36:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/121 "2022-03-23T13:47:42Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I think this bill, and probably the legislators who proposed it, are deeply, profoundly evil. I think that even without the ectopic pregnancy part, that much is obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/122 "2022-03-23T13:49:55Z")
I’m not familiar with the Texas law you refer to. We’ve discussed the Missouri law regarding medical necessity in this thread (which, of course, isn’t the bill that this thread is about) and there seems to be general consensus that the Missouri “emergency” exception is broad enough to cover treating ectopic pregnancies early (a reading, I agree with). But, of course, that’s all a different statute that was enacted several years ago. Why did the bill view performing an illegal abortion on an ectopic pregnancy more serious? I don’t know. I asked the same thing. There were a couple of answers proposed, including that it may be designed “[prevent non-physicians from providing abortion inducing medication to women with ectopic pregnancies](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/61).” I gather that you oppose punishment for doctors who perform illegal abortions, but you haven’t identified any harm that would come from stronger penalties for people who perform illegal abortions on women with ectopic pregnancies. I’m not even trying to defend the bill. But there seems to be a dogged refusal to understand how the bill would work (that goes beyond a mere inability to parse statutes). I’m not sure I understand that. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/123 "2022-03-23T13:58:48Z")
The anti-choice crowd seems to operate a bit like the Russian military. They endeavor to create perimeters around key population centers and control those centers from without. The anti-choice crowd identifies everybody and everything that is even loosely in the orbit of … an abortion … and slowly, methodically begins to craft legislation that criminalizes their activity, in an effort to shut each component down. Piece by piece. **[Building code modifications](https://www.architectmagazine.com/design/architecture-trap-laws-and-the-battle-over-abortion_o)**, admitting privileges, mail-order restrictions, pharmacist regulations, drug manufacturer prohibitions, claims of “public harm” to uninvolved third parties, the laundry list of **[trigger laws](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigger_law)**, etc., etc. They want to make everybody and everything a ‘victim’ of a woman’s right to choose. The fact that they can – at any point in time – even claim with a straight face that any of this is for the ‘safety of the pregnant woman’ is astounding to me. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/124 "2022-03-23T15:16:48Z")
If this is true, it is heinous. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/125 "2022-03-23T15:27:22Z")
Unless there is something very strange about Missouri, approximately half of the voting population must be women. So, if only 25% of the male voters have a conscience, women should easily be able to vote out all of those psycho pseudo religious freaks, right? If they are not doing that, then women are acquiescing to biological slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/126 "2022-03-23T22:24:13Z")
I (or the Times columnist) obviously misunderstood the point of the bill. But I still don’t understand why it is necessary to mention ectopic “pregnancy” at all. I use scare quotes because it is not really a pregnancy at all. There is no fetus that can become a live baby and it can not be removed through the vagina, but only by surgery, possibly laparoscopic. The situation has nothing to do with abortion; it is more like removing an appendix. Clearly the drafters were just playing to the gallery. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/127 "2022-03-23T22:35:55Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > There were a couple of answers proposed, including that it may be designed “[prevent non-physicians from providing abortion inducing medication to women with ectopic pregnancies](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/61).” Except that you learn that you have an ectopic pregnancy from a doctor. There isn’t a black market for abortions for ectopic pregnancies, since in normal places, no one ever needs to look for that. At the very most benign, this is a solution looking for a problem. > [@Falchion](#): > > I gather that you oppose punishment for doctors who perform illegal abortions, but you haven’t identified any harm that would come from stronger penalties for people who perform illegal abortions on women with ectopic pregnancies. No, I oppose criminalizing most abortions. In general, doctors ought to follow the law, but the laws should allow most abortions, imho. And they should always, in every circumstance, allow abortions of ectopic pregnancies. That being said, the hurt that comes from stronger penalties for people who perform abortions that might possibly be deemed illegal on women with ectopic pregnancies is that it threatens doctors who perform legal abortions on women who have ectopic pregnancies, and so might make it harder for women to obtain that treatment. Because there are a lot of laws out there, some more clear than others, some help up by the courts, some that might come into play. And so it becomes risky for a doctor to perform an abortion on a woman with an ectopic pregnancy, at least until she starts hemorrhaging and is obviously in dire straights. THEN it’s pretty clear that it would be legal. But until then, even though everyone knows that it will come to that if left alone, the abortion might be illegal. So instead of getting a safe, early treatment of an ectopic pregnancy, some women will suffer and a few will end up dying. That’s the harm of this provision. ---
**Author:** ![carnut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnut/32/3531_2.png) [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/128 "2022-03-23T22:53:25Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Why should only the woman’s life be at risk? It takes two, right? If pregnancy takes out the mother, due to a failure to provide the required medical care, (abortion) then let’s take out the man too! > > What? He knew the risk, he shouldn’t have had sex if he wasn’t willing to risk it all. Shouldn’t both parties be equally at risk? Hear hear! ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2022, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/129 "2022-03-24T03:04:56Z")
> [@VOW](#): > > There should be a reciprocal law: all men presenting symptoms of acute appendicitis or hernia rupture should be left to die. > > Fair’s fair. Or fairer still, when that happens, the biological father should, by law, be buried with the mother. ETA: Aha. Upon further reading, I see that this was already immediately suggested. GMTA. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2022, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/130 "2022-03-24T13:15:39Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Upon further reading, I see that this was already immediately suggested. GMTA. Not really. It was suggested that the be killed, your suggestion is just to bury them. More appropriate, as they are not actually killing the mother, just putting her in a position to inevitably die, on balance, not killing the father, but only putting him in a position to inevitably die seems equitable. It’s not like laws against terminating ectopic pregnancies have no precedent, there are several religiously dominated countries that have outlawed such a procedure, resulting in a number of entirely preventable deaths of women, and the anti-choice crowd seeks to emulate those countries in a number of ways. There should be _no_ confusion or possibility of interpretation of law that would cause a doctor to pause or to consider legal consequences of giving the best medical care possible. Any mention of ectopic pregnancy in law should only indicate the responsibility of medical providers to terminate it, and maybe how it is to be paid for. In their glee to deny a woman the right to control their own bodies, the anti-choicers don’t care who gets hurt or killed by their decisions, only that _they_ have control over the autonomy of others. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2022, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/131 "2022-03-24T13:18:19Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > It’s not like laws against terminating ectopic pregnancies have no precedent, there are several religiously dominated countries that have outlawed such a procedure, resulting in a number of entirely preventable deaths of women, and the anti-choice crowd seeks to emulate those countries in a number of ways. Did you ever notice the overlap (read: near total) between that American cohort and those apoplectic about the possibility of Sharia Law ruling the land ? Their irony-impairment is metaphysically boundless. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2022, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/132 "2022-03-24T13:30:28Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Did you ever notice the overlap (read: near total) between that American cohort and those apoplectic about the possibility of Sharia Law ruling the land ? Absolutely, and I’ll also note that Christian law is not all that much different. Slightly different flavor, but it’s entirely about controlling people and their actions, limiting freedoms and making sure that certain people know their place in society. They aren’t trying to preserve separation of church and state and a secular society, they are just complaining about competition. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2022, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/133 "2022-03-24T13:30:41Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > More appropriate, as they are not actually killing the mother, just putting her in a position to inevitably die, on balance, not killing the father, but only putting him in a position to inevitably die seems equitable. How about we just make it clear that doctors have an unambiguous obligation to terminate an ectopic pregnancy, and that the only legal penalties are for denying needed treatments, and not kill ANY innocent people. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2022, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/134 "2022-03-24T13:39:00Z")
Agreed, it should be very clear that the obligation is to the health of the mother, and no confusion as to what consequences may come about. The Texas law has already caused such a chilling effect. > **[The Texas abortion ban has a medical exception. But some doctors worry it’s...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/gender-identity/the-texas-abortion-ban-has-a-medical-exception-but-some-doctors-worry-its-too-narrow-to-use/)** > > A woman with an ectopic pregnancy was turned away, abortion advocates say. > [@](#): > > In early September, the National Abortion Federation (NAF) hotline, which coordinates abortion care, received a call from a patient with an ectopic pregnancy in a rural part of South Texas. Rachel Lachenauer, the hotline director, said the woman had no idea what to do: She had been turned away by her regular doctor, she said, who told her that S.B. 8 prevented them from terminating the pregnancy. The woman told Lachenauer the doctor was “nervous” about getting sued, Lachenauer recalled. > [@](#): > > When she called the hospital, she told NAF, they said she would have to seek care in another state. > … > The patient ended up driving between 12 and 15 hours to a hospital in New Mexico, Lachenauer said, where she was able to terminate her pregnancy. Now, would a doctor be sued in this case? Maybe, maybe not. But making a doctor balance possible legal repercussions against providing the best care for their patient is abhorrent and dangerous. And, slightly off-topic, but ectopic pregnancy is not the _only_ contraindication to taking a pregnancy to term. There are various pre-existing conditions that may make the pregnancy dangerous, even if not as inevitably so as an ectopic situation. If a woman has a 50% chance of dying from carrying to term, then I support her right to make that decision, if that’s what she really wants, but I don’t want someone else making that decision for her. And I don’t really want to make some arbitrary cut-off point like 10% or 5% either. (I’m not sure where I would go in the other direction. If someone has a 95% chance of death if they carry to term, I don’t know that I would trust their judgement if they wanted to roll the dice on that.) And it always comes back to it being in the best interests to leave decisions up to the mother informed by doctors working in her best interest. Anyone else getting involved is simply trying to control her, most often against her best interests. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2022, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/135 "2022-03-24T13:44:47Z")
The issue is that a straightforward reading of the Texas law makes the abortion questionable until the mother is hemorrhaging, or otherwise in immediate danger of death. If she has time to buy a bus ticket to another state, it’s not at all clear it’s legal to abort her ectopic pregnancy. I think Missouri is trying for the same thing, only with enhanced penalties if the pregnancy is ectopic. > [@Falchion](#): > > you haven’t identified any harm that would come from stronger penalties for people who perform illegal abortions on women with ectopic pregnancies. Yes, of course this causes harm. Thanks for the cite, k9bfriender. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2022, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/136 "2022-03-24T14:48:30Z")
I have read it in context: > [@DavidNRockies](#): > > 1. The offense of trafficking abortion-inducing devices or drugs is a class A felony if: > (1) The abortion was performed or induced or was attempted to be performed or induced on a woman carrying an unborn child of more than ten weeks gestational age; > (2) **The abortion was performed or induced or was attempted to be performed or induced on a woman who has an ectopic pregnancy;** Besides charging someone with a class A felony for inducing or attempting same on a woman with an ectopic pregnancy, what context is there? ETA: Okay, they’ve dropped the ectopic pregnancy provision. Only because people who actually know what they are talking about raised a stink. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2022, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/137 "2022-03-24T14:51:14Z")
Where is this “abortion industry” located? Pittsburgh? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2022, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/138 "2022-03-24T14:57:11Z")
It’s highly profitable as it lives rent free in the right wingers’ anti-choice minds. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2022, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/139 "2022-03-24T16:55:21Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > No, I oppose criminalizing most abortions. In general, doctors ought to follow the law, but the laws should allow most abortions, imho. And they should always, in every circumstance, allow abortions of ectopic pregnancies. > > That being said, the hurt that comes from stronger penalties for people who perform abortions that might possibly be deemed illegal on women with ectopic pregnancies is that it threatens doctors who perform legal abortions on women who have ectopic pregnancies, and so might make it harder for women to obtain that treatment. Because there are a lot of laws out there, some more clear than others, some help up by the courts, some that might come into play. And so it becomes risky for a doctor to perform an abortion on a woman with an ectopic pregnancy, at least until she starts hemorrhaging and is obviously in dire straights. THEN it’s pretty clear that it would be legal. But until then, even though everyone knows that it will come to that if left alone, the abortion might be illegal. > > So instead of getting a safe, early treatment of an ectopic pregnancy, some women will suffer and a few will end up dying. That’s the harm of this provision. It seems to me your objections do not relate to this bill (which doesn’t make any abortion more or less legal). Rather, they relate to the existing codified definition of medical emergency under Missouri law. (And, actually, they don’t relate to the definition under Missouri law, they relate to a pro-choice organization’s claims regarding a differently worded provision of Texas law.). I expect doctors and pharmacists, who operate in a heavily-regulated field, to be aware of their obligations under the law. And I assume that performing an illegal abortion would be a deterrent and any confusion over the scope of those laws would have effect there (and not on the bill we’re discussing). The confusion over this bill comes from people misrepresenting (deliberately or not) what it does and then publicizing that incorrect interpretation as fact. Edit: > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Except that you learn that you have an ectopic pregnancy from a doctor. There isn’t a black market for abortions for ectopic pregnancies, since in normal places, no one ever needs to look for that. I don’t read the bill as requiring the abortion to be performed _for_ an ectopic pregnancy or that anyone know that the woman has an ectopic pregnancy. Assuming it complies with other legal requirements, everyone else seems to recognize that Missouri’s “emergency” provision would permit an abortion for an ectopic pregnancy. But I can imagine a situation in which a non-physician provides mifepristone for use at home (a violation of Missouri law) to a woman seeking an abortion who has (but does not know she has) an ectopic pregnancy. I understand that mifepristone is contraindicated for ectopic pregnancy, but I don’t know how dangerous it is to try to abort an ectopic pregnancy with mifepristone. That would seem to fall within what the statute proscribes (and really only situations like that since the necessary element of “illegal abortion” isn’t going to apply to most abortions for ectopic pregnancies). ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2022, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457/140 "2022-03-24T17:01:05Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > ETA: Okay, they’ve dropped the ectopic pregnancy provision. Only because people who actually know what they are talking about raised a stink. Lol nice insult. Subtle. Moot or not, you still haven’t grasped the actual sense of the sentence: > The offense of trafficking abortion-inducing devices or _ **drugs** _ a class A felony _ **if:** _ \>(1) The abortion was performed or inUduced or was attempted to be performed or induced on a woman (2) > The abortion was performed or induced or was attempted to be performed or induced on a woman who has an ectopic pregnancy The reason for specifying ectopic pregnancy is because treating it with a pill could be fatal to the mother. That **IF** ’ll get you every time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/missouri-suggests-women-guilty-of-ectopic-pregnancy-must-die/961457.md?page=8)