# "Mister President". Correct form? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 21, 2009, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mister-president-correct-form/514670 "2009-10-21T22:49:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bogeyman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3e96dc/32.png) [@Bogeyman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bogeyman)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mister-president-correct-form/514670/21 "2009-10-22T13:46:29Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > For what it’s worth, in German a university professor with a doctorate would be called by Herr Doktor Professor. Sorry for the hijack, but this is a misconception. If you’re talking to a professor with a doctorate you would simply call him Herr Professor Lastname. If you are addressing a letter to him you’d write Herr Prof. Dr. Lastname. (Note that the lesser title comes second.) In the body of the letter you’d again call him Herr Professor Lastname. Most people still use Frau Professor Lastname, btw, although Professorin is technically correct. Given all that, in practice things may be different. In my student days we would address most of the faculty as Herr / Frau Lastname or simply by their first name (if invited to o so); the exception being a couple of the older professors who got the Herr Professor Lastname treatment. But then we had a pretty relaxed department. N.B. Things in Austria are probably different. There is a much greater emphasis on titles in the culture than here in Germany, or so I’m given to understand. I’m curious to know where the “Herr Doktor Professor” misconception comes from, since I’ve seen it in American fiction as well as in Captain Carrot’s post. Don’t remember seeing it in British fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mister-president-correct-form/514670/22 "2009-10-23T16:00:49Z")
> [@cerberus](#): > > IAs for the NYT, grrrr. You could have some standard schmo MD getting “Doctored” constantly, but then a prominent scientist with only a PhD getting “Mistered” to death, even when the context directly relates to their area of expertise. And it’s NASA, NYT, not Nasa. There is a very valid style point that says that if it’s pronounced as a word, it should be capitalized as a word. It’s my preferred style. As for the topic, I believe that in a democracy, no one should be addressed with any title higher than Mr./Ms. for any reason, and that Mr./Ms. should be reserved only for direct address. News articles should dispense with titles altogether. On first reference: “Barack H. Obama Jr., the U.S. president” (if it’s even necessary to specify) Subsequent references: “Obama” (unless the article reference more than one person named Obama), or “the (U.S.) president” ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mister-president-correct-form/514670/23 "2009-10-23T16:38:55Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > There is a very valid style point that says that if it’s pronounced as a word, it should be capitalized as a word. It’s my preferred style. Whose style is this? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mister-president-correct-form/514670/24 "2009-10-23T16:49:44Z")
Well, **Cerberus** says he’s seen it in the Times, so it’s apparently their style. I believe I’ve also seen “Nasa” and “Nato” and “aids” (for the disease) in the Economist. My company’s house style states that company names that originated as initialisms but are pronounced as words get this treatment: Alcoa, Arco. I believe the Associated Press has a similar rule. It makes sense to me to extend this rule to any name – Unesco, Uncitral, USA Patriot Act, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mister-president-correct-form/514670/25 "2009-10-23T17:38:55Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > As for the topic, I believe that in a democracy, no one should be addressed with any title higher than Mr./Ms. for any reason, and that Mr./Ms. should be reserved only for direct address. This has an odd “Citizen DeFarge” or “Comrade Trotsky” ring to it. It’s an impractical ceremonial exercise in ideology. > [@](#): > > News articles should dispense with titles altogether. Space is often at a premium in news articles, so “President Obama” is always going to take precedence over “Barack H. Obama Jr., the U.S. president.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mister-president-correct-form/514670/26 "2009-10-23T18:08:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This has an odd “Citizen DeFarge” or “Comrade Trotsky” ring to it. It’s an impractical ceremonial exercise in ideology. It’s not impractical at all. We’ve been experiencing a steady informalization in our society for a long time. We’re more than halfway there. In any case, there’s a big practical difference between eliminating titles – which most of us already do in our day-to-day relationships – and grafting on a new title based on ideology.l > [@](#): > > Space is often at a premium in news articles, so “President Obama” is always going to take precedence over “Barack H. Obama Jr., the U.S. president.” News articles are less and less tied to paper and ink. The extra characters aren’t significant in a digital world. “Always”? A lot of things have changed that were once thought unchangeable. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mister-president-correct-form/514670/27 "2009-10-23T18:44:56Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > It’s not impractical at all. We’ve been experiencing a steady informalization in our society for a long time. That’s the problem. Your idea is more formal and requires using more words. From what I can tell of historical trends, that’s swimming upstream. > [@](#): > > The extra characters aren’t significant in a digital world. In point of fact, there are programs and devices that do have character restrictions. Twitter comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mister-president-correct-form/514670/28 "2009-10-23T19:05:54Z")
My understanding has always been that only the titles “Governor” and “Ambassador” are sticky, in that only a former governor or ambassador are properly addressed by those titles. Thus, when George Aiken retired from the Senate, after a very long senatorial career, he was referred to as “Governor Aiken” for the rest of his life. In fact, longer than that. Similarly, Elliot Richardson, after his service in the White House as whatever he was, was referred to as “Ambassador Richardson”. But, for reasons that no one really understands, Congressmen don’t get the same treatment. My cite is Bill Safire’s _Dictionary of American Politics_, an excellent resource. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mister-president-correct-form/514670/29 "2009-10-23T19:35:56Z")
But this “excellent resource” sets forth a rule that clearly produces a ridiculous result to most people. Who goes around calling them Ambassador (George H.W.) Bush and Governor Clinton? Pretty much nobody. So clearly the formal protocol rule is not an appropriate guide the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mister-president-correct-form/514670/30 "2009-10-24T01:18:30Z")
Actually, GHWB for years and Joe Kennedy for decades were called “Ambassador” after leaving those diplomatic posts. My own personal view is that in a democracy, once you’ve left office, you should give up the title as well. Harry Truman liked to say that his biggest satisfaction on leaving the White House was reclaiming the simple but honorable title of plain ol’ “Mr. Truman.” ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mister-president-correct-form/514670/31 "2009-10-24T20:47:43Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > But this “excellent resource” sets forth a rule that clearly produces a ridiculous result to most people. Who goes around calling them Ambassador (George H.W.) Bush and Governor Clinton? Pretty much nobody. So clearly the formal protocol rule is not an appropriate guide the rest of us. Safire wasn’t prescribing, but describing what the rule had been. It may well have changed, but historically, that was pretty much correct. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mister-president-correct-form/514670.md?page=1)